Finch West Line 6 LRT

[innsertnamehere]

can a mod remove the transit city moniker from the thread title? that plan is a peice of history now and this LRT is more of a leftover from it..

 

[rbt]

I think your equivocating between Chinese and Canadian electoral practices is quite wrong, but in any case it makes my point for me.

I'm not at all certain what your point is.

ehlow was flabbergasted at the lack of technical knowledge in city council, and I was trying to quickly show that it was a local (continental at least) systematic issue but isn't the case everywhere. I think you agreed with that and provided additional detail as to why in your last post.

Engineers or others with strong technical abilities tend not to make it onto the ballot here, and if they do they tend not to get the support necessary to be elected. As a result, our decision makers are weak in technical knowledge.

 

[TFC]

I'm not at all certain what your point is.

ehlow was flabbergasted at the lack of technical knowledge in city council, and I was trying to quickly show that it was a local (continental at least) systematic issue but isn't the case everywhere. I think you agreed with that and provided additional detail as to why in your last post.

Engineers or others with strong technical abilities tend not to make it onto the ballot here, and if they do they tend not to get the support necessary to be elected. As a result, our decision makers are weak in technical knowledge.

And rather than listening to the advice from those that have a strong grasp of technical knowledge, they ignore it and make their own plans and draw their own lines on a map without any knowledge of what they're doing.

 

[ehlow]

They don't need to be engineers, they just need a very basic level of knowledge on transit & transit tech. Maybe a 30 min session with Andy Byford after each election.

Explaining for example, what determines the speed of the vehicle? (talking about stop spacing, traffic, grade separation, dwell time)
What determines how frequently you can run it? & Reliability
What determines the capacity of a line?
What determines ridership of a line?
What are the current plans for upgrading, maintaining & expanding the current system?
The differences between LRT, subway, Skytrain, BRT, bus lanes, normal buses & streetcars.
A quick overview of the current system (for those councillors who have never taken transit).

 

[gweed123]

They don't need to be engineers, they just need a very basic level of knowledge on transit & transit tech. Maybe a 30 min session with Andy Byford after each election.

Explaining for example, what determines the speed of the vehicle? (talking about stop spacing, traffic, grade separation, dwell time)
What determines how frequently you can run it? & Reliability
What determines the capacity of a line?
What determines ridership of a line?
What are the current plans for upgrading, maintaining & expanding the current system?
The differences between LRT, subway, Skytrain, BRT, bus lanes, normal buses & streetcars.
A quick overview of the current system (for those councillors who have never taken transit).

An multi-part series on some of the major newscasts would go a long way too. Remember: it's not just politicians that are clueless, it's a lot of the people voting for them too.

 

[ehlow]

An multi-part series on some of the major newscasts would go a long way too. Remember: it's not just politicians that are clueless, it's a lot of the people voting for them too.

Yes, although, you can't blame people for it. It is really confusing.

Imagine explaining the difference between LRT and streetcars. There are so many variations, you could be comparing St Clair with the new vehicles to Sheppard LRT, or you could be comparing the Scarborough LRT with new vehicles running on the RT route to the King streetcar with the current (old) vehicles. Or explaining the difference between an underground LRT and a subway.

Look at the various plans for the SRT replacement alone, and all the routes proposed. The constant changing of plans, you'd have to really be obsessed with transit (like we are) to actually understand the various plans.

Having said that, I expect a higher level of knowledge for a city councillor actually making decisions than the average Torontonian.

 

[TOareaFan]

An multi-part series on some of the major newscasts would go a long way too. Remember: it's not just politicians that are clueless, it's a lot of the people voting for them too.

This is a very good point....we all have gaps in our knowledge that should be filled.

The recent polling in Scarborough showing more support (now) for LRT than subway points this out. I think before the decision, the results would have been very much different.....because subways sound better than LRTs....the swing, I bet you, is caused by a bunch of people looking at the maps being published in the paper and seeing that the stop that they thought would serve them disappeared with the switch of modes...and they thought "oh, wait, what I wanted was RT that served me...now I want that back so I support LRT"

 

[ehlow]

This is a very good point....we all have gaps in our knowledge that should be filled.

The recent polling in Scarborough showing more support (now) for LRT than subway points this out. I think before the decision, the results would have been very much different.....because subways sound better than LRTs....the swing, I bet you, is caused by a bunch of people looking at the maps being published in the paper and seeing that the stop that they thought would serve them disappeared with the switch of modes...and they thought "oh, wait, what I wanted was RT that served me...now I want that back so I support LRT"

The group of people using the stops that are there for the LRT but not for the subway is very small. The poll results swung towards LRT because it mentioned that the subway comes with a property tax increase.

 

[BurlOak]

They don't need to be engineers, they just need a very basic level of knowledge on transit & transit tech. Maybe a 30 min session with Andy Byford after each election.

Explaining for example, what determines the speed of the vehicle? (talking about stop spacing, traffic, grade separation, dwell time)
What determines how frequently you can run it? & Reliability
What determines the capacity of a line?
What determines ridership of a line?
What are the current plans for upgrading, maintaining & expanding the current system?
The differences between LRT, subway, Skytrain, BRT, bus lanes, normal buses & streetcars.
A quick overview of the current system (for those councillors who have never taken transit).

In the Provincial or Federal government, it is up to the Minister to stand in the house give enough background to explain why certain legislation is required.
I would expect that in the Municipal setting, it would be the various board chairs (i.e. Karen Stintz in Transit), to educate the Councillors prior to a vote.

 

[gweed123]

Yes, although, you can't blame people for it. It is really confusing.

Imagine explaining the difference between LRT and streetcars. There are so many variations, you could be comparing St Clair with the new vehicles to Sheppard LRT, or you could be comparing the Scarborough LRT with new vehicles running on the RT route to the King streetcar with the current (old) vehicles. Or explaining the difference between an underground LRT and a subway.

Look at the various plans for the SRT replacement alone, and all the routes proposed. The constant changing of plans, you'd have to really be obsessed with transit (like we are) to actually understand the various plans.

Having said that, I expect a higher level of knowledge for a city councillor actually making decisions than the average Torontonian.

This is a very good point....we all have gaps in our knowledge that should be filled.

The recent polling in Scarborough showing more support (now) for LRT than subway points this out. I think before the decision, the results would have been very much different.....because subways sound better than LRTs....the swing, I bet you, is caused by a bunch of people looking at the maps being published in the paper and seeing that the stop that they thought would serve them disappeared with the switch of modes...and they thought "oh, wait, what I wanted was RT that served me...now I want that back so I support LRT"

Instead of focusing so much on technology (which is where the debate gets dragged into the mud), it should focus instead on the basics like different types of operating environments (mixed-traffic, dedicated ROW, grade-separated ROW), stop spacing, and the benefits and drawbacks associated.

Go through the relationship between stop spacing, segregation, and vehicle speed and explain how changing one or more of these factors changes how the line operates and what kind of role it is best suited for.

 

[ehlow]

Instead of focusing so much on technology (which is where the debate gets dragged into the mud), it should focus instead on the basics like different types of operating environments (mixed-traffic, dedicated ROW, grade-separated ROW), stop spacing, and the benefits and drawbacks associated.

Go through the relationship between stop spacing, segregation, and vehicle speed and explain how changing one or more of these factors changes how the line operates and what kind of role it is best suited for.

Totally agree.

 

[salsa]

Instead of focusing so much on technology (which is where the debate gets dragged into the mud), it should focus instead on the basics like different types of operating environments (mixed-traffic, dedicated ROW, grade-separated ROW), stop spacing, and the benefits and drawbacks associated.

Go through the relationship between stop spacing, segregation, and vehicle speed and explain how changing one or more of these factors changes how the line operates and what kind of role it is best suited for.

Some people couldn't care less about facts, especially when they oppose their ideology. A report just came out that recommends demolishing the eastern part of the gardiner expressway is just the latest example, and that did not sway Denzil Minnan-Wong. He made up his mind long before the facts came out, claiming that tearing it down will cause traffic chaos, will not improve the waterfront, etc. But that's not surprising at all for someone who doesn't care about anything that doesn't have a carbon-spewing exhaust pipe.

I'm predicting another shit show in the council debate. The outcome will have a huge impact on the city's future, but expect to hear plenty of "war on cars", "traffic chaos", and "bicycle riding downtown lefties" rather than thoughtful discourse. It's too bad this issue couldn't wait until we get a new mayor.

 

[ehlow]

Some people couldn't care less about facts, especially when they oppose their ideology. A report just came out that recommends demolishing the eastern part of the gardiner expressway is just the latest example, and that did not sway Denzil Minnan-Wong. He made up his mind long before the facts came out, claiming that tearing it down will cause traffic chaos, will not improve the waterfront, etc. But that's not surprising at all for someone who doesn't care about anything that doesn't have a carbon-spewing exhaust pipe.

I'm predicting another shit show in the council debate. The outcome will have a huge impact on the city's future, but expect to hear plenty of "war on cars", "traffic chaos", and "bicycle riding downtown lefties" rather than thoughtful discourse. It's too bad this issue couldn't wait until we get a new mayor.

Toronto is filled with angry drivers, angry at the traffic they go through daily, angry at the city. Harnessing that anger is an amazingly powerful political force. The Gardiner thing was the perfect thing to incite their anger and it really created an image of "downtown lefties" who care about creating livable walkable urban areas filled with cafes and beaches, while they spend hours on a congested highway trying to get home to their family in the suburbs.

 

[BurlOak]

Some people couldn't care less about facts, especially when they oppose their ideology. A report just came out that recommends demolishing the eastern part of the gardiner expressway is just the latest example, and that did not sway Denzil Minnan-Wong. He made up his mind long before the facts came out, claiming that tearing it down will cause traffic chaos, will not improve the waterfront, etc. But that's not surprising at all for someone who doesn't care about anything that doesn't have a carbon-spewing exhaust pipe.

But I think people in general know that you can get the result you want in a study if you adjust the term of reference and weighting of different factors, and by who you get to do the study.

I find the SRT the best example.

• In 2006, before Transit City, TTC found that renewal with SRT vehicles was the best option (and a B-D subway extnesion is the worst).
• Then after Transit City in +/-2009, both Metrolinx and TTC found LRT to be the best option.
• Now in 2013, both Metrolinx and TTC concluded that the B-D subway extension is the best option.

I am sure that 3 different groups could study the Gardiner and find that Replace, Improve, or Repair as the preferred option, depending on who does the study.

 

[rbt]

They don't need to be engineers, they just need a very basic level of knowledge on transit & transit tech. Maybe a 30 min session with Andy Byford after each election.

Transit is far from the only thing the city handles that suffers from poor decision making.

The ones interesting in learning, do learn. They read the orientation material they are given. The ones who are not interested do not read the orientation material and make mistakes.

Everybody on council have direct access to most senior staff and are able to ask question or for information at any time.