Finch West Line 6 LRT

[EnviroTO]

You missed the point. If they couple 2 together, they'll halve the frequency. Then, there'll be twice as many people waiting at the next stop (and it might take more than twice as long to get people on and off).

Just like a subway will. Imagine the frequency of buses on a Sheppard BRT if the subway didn't exist.

 

[Voltz]

You missed the point. If they couple 2 together, they'll halve the frequency. Then, there'll be twice as many people waiting at the next stop (and it might take more than twice as long to get people on and off).

I don't get this, you are claiming it would take twice as long for double the number of people to get on a vehicle that is twice as big with double the number of doors? It should not take any longer. It might take a bit longer if the passengers are dumb enough to crowd one spot on the platform.

But the point you seem to be ignoring (since I know you are smart enough to realize this) is that coupled LRT trains (and single vehicles to a lesser extent) have a significantly higher capacity capacity than buses when run in a Transit City style ROW, and by many accounts that capacity will be needed. And they are only planning to join LRT's together when required.

 

[Second_in_pie]

I'd have to agree here that while Finch is well suited for LRT, the current design does not offer enough of a speed boost. The current Finch buses would suffice just fine the way they are to serve local demand. With the subway splitting the ridership, the LRT on the hydro corridor could be make to stop just at the major cross roads: Yonge, Bathurst, Dufferin, Keele, Jane, etc.. This would serve as a true rapid corridor to Humber College, but I would like to see a branch go directly to Pearson by following the hydro corridor as it turns south of Finch near Weston to Pearson. If the trip can be done in under 40mins, that would attract a lot of riders from North York area travelling to the airport.

With the current design, the trip would take longer than an hour, and that would not be useful for anyone starting their journey at Yonge St, as the buses could make that journey in the same time, thus not offering any time savings, except maybe during peak hours.

The one thing I like about the transit city plan is that it will enhance the street-scape by planing trees along the road and adding bike lanes. Something that wouldn't be done with the hydro corridor design. That alone could save lots of money or allow for a longer line.

Agreed. All of the new LRTs and BRTs that get built should be built to be as fast as possible. Full signal priority, POP fare with all door boarding, intelligent stop design and placement, high speed capability, etc. I don't understand why we'd spend hundreds of millions of dollars and not try to make the line as fast as possible.

I also agree that the street modification and bike lanes will be good for the streets though.

 

[Rainforest]

For Finch West, street-median LRT will be much more useful than BRT in the Hydro Corridor:

1) There will be more passengers from North Etobicoke transferring to subway at Finch West Stn (and heading downtown or to York U) than those heading all the way to Yonge. For the former group, BRT will provide virtually no benefit (stretch is too short to matter), whereas LRT will be beneficial.

2) Even for those going from North Etobicoke to Yonge, Hydro Corridor will give a very small speed advantage over street-median ROW. Say, Humber College to Yonge is about 16 km. By LRT: at 22 kph, total 44 min. By bus using BRT: 10 km in BRT at say 35 kph is 17 min, 6 km in mixed traffic at 17 kph is 22 min, total 39 min.

3) Alignment in Hydro Corridor will miss many trip generators located south of Finch, including malls at Jane and at Bathurst, 2 hospitals, and highrises between Bathurst and Dufferin. The problem is not that people are too lazy to walk to the BRT, but that the built form does not allow easy access in many cases. For example, between Bathurst and Dufferin people would have to walk through somebody's backyards.

So, LRT is the right solution for Finch West.

At the same time, the idea of BRT to Airport in the Hydro Corridor makes sense. If it is both fast and cuts diagonally from the Airport to Finch / Signet, the trip time saving will be significant. However, that route does not have to be a branch of Finch West route. Perhaps that BRT can run in Hydro Corridor from Airport to subway at Finch / Keele, then up Keele (or via YorkU Busway to Dufferin and then up Dufferin), merge into 407 Transitway, and reach Richmong Hill Centre.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Just like a subway will. Imagine the frequency of buses on a Sheppard BRT if the subway didn't exist.

So Finch West is getting a subway? The LRT on Finch will move as many people as Sheppard does?

I don't get this, you are claiming it would take twice as long for double the number of people to get on a vehicle that is twice as big with double the number of doors? It should not take any longer. It might take a bit longer if the passengers are dumb enough to crowd one spot on the platform.

You think people will be perfectly and orderly lined up and spaced out at stops, boarding/alighting as efficiently and quickly as possible...that's very cute. Have you ever used transit before?

It may not take twice as long on a regular basis, but it depends on what the policy will be in terms of schedule-keeping. Buses often currently wait at stops for a minute or more waiting for, literally, another person or two to get on, but subways just close the doors and leave even if there's plenty of room left. For reasons that may be recreated along Finch (platform design, location of signalized crossings, location of stairs/escalators at the subway, etc.), people at stations like Kennedy or Y&B blob together in one place on the platform even when they know seats will be available further down. On Finch, they won't even be sure how long the next LRT is, or where exactly it will stop (and where exactly the doors will be). "Dumb" people crowding together getting on and off will be bumping into each other as they make their way to the signalized intersection to cross Finch.

But the point you seem to be ignoring (since I know you are smart enough to realize this) is that coupled LRT trains (and single vehicles to a lesser extent) have a significantly higher capacity capacity than buses when run in a Transit City style ROW, and by many accounts that capacity will be needed. And they are only planning to join LRT's together when required.

Thanks to the Spadina extension, it's unlikely that much more capacity will be needed than exists today, which you're ignoring. I'm not a big fan of BRT, but it should be considered. Your argument makes no sense: do you really think Finch will move more people than can be moved by a BRT line? Rubbish. We don't know what numbers were slotted into the formula to come up with Finch's optimistic projection, but there's zero chance ridership will triple even after the Spadina extension, which is approximately what is projected. They'll probably switch to longer vehicles just for efficiency's sake and to make signal priority at least somewhat possible.

 

[Whoaccio]

I'm less concerned with BRT vs. LRT than Finch vs. Hydrocorridor. Regardless of the mode, using the hydro-corridor would save on construction costs and make for a faster trip (both for the LRT/BRT and traffic along Finch).

 

[scarberiankhatru]

With the hydro corridor, we also need to consider using it for local vs regional transit. Consuming the corridor for 10km of a local transit line may be a waste if it can be used for something bigger and if buses still need to serve Finch (moving to the corridor would help some riders and hurt others). Improved buses (which is not a 'do nothing' option), BRT, LRT, hydro corridor...nothing was studied. How much would bridges over the 400 and the reservoir cost? Finch wouldn't get all the bike lanes and landscaping and so on...not that irregularly-available transit funding is best employed sprucing up suburban arterials, but it's yet another thing to consider.

 

[Second_in_pie]

With the hydro corridor, we also need to consider using it for local vs regional transit.

I think this is the big question for Finch. They hydro corridor definitely has the capacity for a big regional route, spanning the northern 416 and maybe even going through Mississauga.

Improved buses (which is not a 'do nothing' option), BRT, LRT, hydro corridor...nothing was studied. How much would bridges over the 400 and the reservoir cost?

Yeah, this again points out the stupidity of Transit City. There is so much of a need for a true study on basically all these lines, yet there wasn't. Eglinton: Subway or LRT? Full subway, partial subway, subway to pearson, what? Sheppard: LRT? Subway to Agincourt? Subway to STC? Waterfront West: Express on the rail corridor or Queen LRT? Jane: BRT or LRT? Invest in an Eglinton RT to Jane and then stop the route there? Kingston Road: BRT or LRT? To Malvern, Sheppard, or UTSC? Combine it with the Kingston Road Streetcar? Stop it at Kennedy or VP? So many options and questions, why wasn't a true study done for any of these?

 

[EnviroTO]

So Finch West is getting a subway? The LRT on Finch will move as many people as Sheppard does?

No, but a larger vehicle, subway or LRT, decreases the required headway. The Finch West LRT with vehicles that are about a quarter of the capacity of a four car subway could have a quarter of the ridership of the subway and get the same headway.

The ridership of Finch West currently with no upgrade driven demand is about 43,000 which compares to Sheppard's 47,000. With a vehicle a quarter the size of Sheppard's subway the headway on Finch West to provide similar capacity per rider km would be about double the headway of the Sheppard line.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

No, but a larger vehicle, subway or LRT, decreases the required headway. The Finch West LRT with vehicles that are about a quarter of the capacity of a four car subway could have a quarter of the ridership of the subway and get the same headway.

The ridership of Finch West currently with no upgrade driven demand is about 43,000 which compares to Sheppard's 47,000. With a vehicle a quarter the size of Sheppard's subway the headway on Finch West to provide similar capacity per rider km would be about double the headway of the Sheppard line.

Sheppard moves a lot more people per hour per direction...there's not much comparison. Finch West's peak crowds will be substantially lowered by the Spadina extension...they could subsequently double and still not be half as large as Sheppard's crowds. Sheppard's headways are insufficient, anyway, as people are often left behind on the platform.

Comparisons to a subway are pointless...what's being compared here is the proposed LRT with existing bus service. If we ran 300 car-long GO trains, we could get away with a frequency of about one per day.

 

[EnviroTO]

If an LRT replaces a subway with a vehicle a quarter of the size then its headway would need to be 4x more frequent to provide the same capacity. If that ridership was spread over a 2x longer route with even distribution (not true here since ridership is higher towards the Yonge subway) it would reduce the required headway by half to 2x more frequent than the subway with half the length and double the capacity.

The reality is if Finch West provides a ridership half the amount of the Sheppard subway with vehicles a quarter of the capacity of the Sheppard line it will be equally loaded when running at identical headways. Switching the LRT to a bus will make the headways with equal loading run twice as frequent as the subway or more. Any improvements to make the line BRT or LRT and intensification on the route will increase the required frequency for equal loading even further. While the Spadina extension will take some of the pressure off the route between Keele and Yonge it will increase ridership on the route from what it is now. Since the calculation above was already based on even distribution across the line the opening of Finch West station does not affect the calculation.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Again, it's really an apples to oranges concept.

If you look at Finch west, what does it have? It's got a lot of density and possible ridership, that's true. It's also got York U and Humber College, the former being already served by a subway.

Sheppard, on the other hand, is totally different. It hits the centre of a major urban growth centre and basically a downtown in it's own right (NYCC,) and also hits two other large density nodes (Agincourt and the Bayview area.) It also hits another urban growth centre, which will continue to grow rapidly (STC,) as well as a major employment zone (consumer's.) The reason it's ridership is so low is because none of these are linked. Right now, the subway is really dead. If it goes to STC, it'll connect all those areas, providing service to each from all sides. I'm sure that if it's extended to STC, it's ridership could get up to 100k in the first year at least, if not higher to 150k in just one year.

The amount of density nodes and employment centres on Finch and Sheppard is really incomparable. While Finch's ridership really has very little to go, Sheppard's potential ridership is totally unrealized and several times higher than Finch's.

 

[EnviroTO]

The amount of density nodes and employment centres on Finch and Sheppard is really incomparable. While Finch's ridership really has very little to go, Sheppard's potential ridership is totally unrealized and several times higher than Finch's.

Yet the ridership on Sheppard hasn't historically been that much different from Finch West. In the period just before the Sheppard subway opened Finch West had higher ridership than the Sheppard West bus which ran a longer route. Finch-Bathurst has similar density to the Bayview area, the route still passes York U, Agincourt is no more dense than Jane-Finch, Weston-Finch is set for a major redevelopment, there is significant density at Kipling-Finch, and there is Humber College. With LRT Finch West doesn't need to have similar potential to a route with a subway for the same headway... it only needs a quarter of the potential to have the same loading and frequency.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The reality is that the Spadina extension will lower demand between Yonge and Keele, the busiest part of the route. What's the current peak ridership west of Yonge or west of Keele? If it goes up by 50% after the subway extension, will it even reach 1000 per hour west of Keele? Will it be any higher than it is today even after ridership growth due to the subway? And Voltz was suggesting a BRT is not capable of handling this number of riders. Did the 2300-2800 forecast account for the future subway split? Populations continue to plummet in areas along Finch West.

The Sheppard comparison are pointless. If the Sheppard line was never built, much of its ridership would not exist today or would be scattered elsewhere. More people would take other routes or drive, fewer condos would have been built, fewer transit-using people would be moving to the area, etc. The same kind of ridership growth will definitely not happen with an LRT on Finch. If there's an even distribution of ridership along Finch, with many riders getting on and off at random spots, the current peak loads are even lower than I think they are, which makes worrying about capacity even sillier.

What we don't know if if the TTC will run vehicles as infrequently as necessary to ensure there's always an acceptable level of overcrowding to support efficiency (like surface routes), or if they'll try to keep them running at specified frequencies and headways and support ridership growth through reliability and travel time boosts (like the subway). They might promise one thing, but what will they actually do?

 

[Fresh Start]

With the hydro corridor, we also need to consider using it for local vs regional transit. Consuming the corridor for 10km of a local transit line may be a waste if it can be used for something bigger and if buses still need to serve Finch (moving to the corridor would help some riders and hurt others). Improved buses (which is not a 'do nothing' option), BRT, LRT, hydro corridor...nothing was studied. How much would bridges over the 400 and the reservoir cost? Finch wouldn't get all the bike lanes and landscaping and so on...not that irregularly-available transit funding is best employed sprucing up suburban arterials, but it's yet another thing to consider.

I wouldn't bridge the BRT over Hwy 400, a cut-n-cover crossing below would suffice. I think the big picture for now should be to eliminate the Finch West LRT line and instead have BRT routed through the F.H.C. all the way from Morningside or the Zoo via Beare subdivison to Weston Rd or to Hwy 27 Stn on the Eglinton Line if we consider an extensive amount of bridging over the Humber river valley, continued southwesterly on an elevated guideway. We can worry about interregional trips later. Like I was suggesting in the other thread, a Highway 27 BRT route could target nodal areas all over northern Etobicoke, perhaps better than a LRT corridor affixed to Finch would allow.

It sucks for real that TTC groupthink won't allow for anything other than LRT technology to be assessed.