Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
It's mostly light industrial there now anyway. There's the Hospital and some medical offices, the residental aspect begins slightly east at Jane and Finch.
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Finch West Line 6 LRT
- Thread starter W. K. Lis
- Start date
It's mostly light industrial there now anyway. There's the Hospital and some medical offices, the residental aspect begins slightly east at Jane and Finch.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
The layout of the area is that properties directly on Norfinch are light industrial but everything else is residential. The subject property was approved for residential and due to the size of the reaches significantly closer to Jane than other light industrial properties in the area. The intersection points of two major transit lines should be developed with more density than other areas.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
lead82
Senior Member
awesome. I will be definitely attending one of these sessions
Fresh Start
Banned
Okay I just surveyed the entire stretch of the Finch Hydro Corridor on Google Earth from Finch and Morningside to Renforth and Eglinton, and I must say that besides political wranglings with Hydro One, there are no physical obstacles that would deem building a BRT corridor along it an impossibility. Natural features such as the Humber Valley and the Ross Lord Reservoir can easily be bridged over; mitigating highways and minor streets crossings can be underpassed. Assuming $10 million/km for BRT, 32 kilometres from Malvern to Dixon/Highway 27 would be $320 million or roughly the same price as one kilometre of new subway. I sincerely hope the York U BRT is just the first logical step in redeveloping a swath of this available land for true crosstown travel continuity, not the three ring circus of Finch West/Don Mills/Sheppard East LRT.
drum118
Superstar
What will this BRT service??
Where do you plan on putting stations?
How do on street people get to this BRT?
Does the $10m/km cover the cost of building underpasses as well overpasses??
What cost have you allow for stations as well what do you see they should look like??
Have you taken a walk along this corridor to backup your comments??
Really!!! there is nothing along the corridor stopping building a BRT and I can tell you there is.
I better check that math of $320m as it is very low.
You need to have a talk with the MOE as what going to stop this BRT.
milanista
Active Member
haha no physical obstacles huh? if you say so.
Just for the record, I am totally in favour of the Finch LRT, almost as much as the Eglinton. The west side of the city is much poorer than the east side when it comes to rapid transit. The former city of Etobicoke has only what, 3 subway stops? That leaves nothing for those living north of Bloor and west of the Allen with precious little in the way of rapid transit while east Toronto has the Scarborough LRT and the Sheppard subway.
Not fair.
Just for the record, I am totally in favour of the Finch LRT, almost as much as the Eglinton. The west side of the city is much poorer than the east side when it comes to rapid transit. The former city of Etobicoke has only what, 3 subway stops? That leaves nothing for those living north of Bloor and west of the Allen with precious little in the way of rapid transit while east Toronto has the Scarborough LRT and the Sheppard subway.
Not fair.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
$3.2B maybe...$320M is a joke. The hydro corridor is potentially useful as a substitute for some of a Finch West route, but it is less useful for Finch East. It's completely useless west of Weston and east of Don Mills. East of Don Mills, it runs alongside McNicoll, which certainly needs no relief. The 42A is shockingly underused, though poor service contributes to this. The corridor would be better used for regional transit, with stops every 2-4km or so.
Twisted Son of Gumby
New Member
Developing a transit corridor along that Hydro One ROW for any long distance would probably be better suited to a long distance RT line of some sort that connects only with other RT lines. Remember the 1980's GO ALRT crosstown rail proposal, for example?
Although two concepts come to mind, for shorter distances along the hydro ROW:
a) A York University busway extension to Finch station. This would serve ridership between York University and the Yonge subway, as well as serve as a connection with the Spadina line.
b) A vehicular bypass road somewhere between Don Mills Road and Yonge Street. This may sound like a ridiculous concept, however insofar as I know, there are no plans to widen Finch Avenue East in order to accomodate new LRT lanes as per Metrolinx's plans. Considering this would bottleneck this segment of Finch down to one vehicular lane per direction - also ridiculous - a compensatory bypass of some sort should be considered. Perhaps the best solution: NO Finch East LRT for the time being.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
Google Earth must have improved since the last time I used it if tripods and electronic levels are no longer required for surveying. Obstacles that make BRT an impossibility would be what exactly? Considering road tunnels have been built through mountains I'm not sure what insurmountable obstacle you were looking for on Google Earth in a Toronto hydro corridor. There are reservoirs, cross streets, residents back yards, rivers, Funstation, and freeways along the route.
Fresh Start
Banned
The impossibility stems from the lack of interest by the public in developing this almost readily available land that reaches right across the 416 for transit purposes. It's particularly frustrating when a LRT line that only covers half the distance and will cost twice as much is being proposed only 500m to the south. I thought I may as well give it another try to strive for better and then perhaps someone with more expertise than I on these matters can advise me as to how to go about my research and analysis, how to demonstrate how it'll benefit the public, etc.
Here's what I do know so far. $10 million/km is only for the basics of building an BRT corridor (separator wall, asphalt/concrete, road reconiguration, pedestrian crossings with signals, road coloration, passing lanes, minimalist shelters). Everything else would be an add-on but at least we're talking about an initial asking price that's only in the few hundred millions range for a true crosstown rapid transit service; as opposed to billions or TC lines that only cover part of the distance. Based on road construction projects right in the GTA as of 2009 I would factor road intersection underpasses at $8 million dollars a piece. This would be necessary for crossing minor streets that will not be served as well crossing beneath Highways 409, 400 and 404. The mean average for bridged sections that no will have no stops en route is $40 million/km. This would be optimal for the roughly 3 kilometre stretch of the Humber Valley and again about a kilometre over the Ross Lord Reservoir. Overpasses with enclosed stations would be a rarer case at roughly $30 million per intersection. Jane-Finch Stn could be one of these locations as not to disrupt the Funstation property as you pointed out and make transfering onto the Jane Line less complicated (just escalators/elevator required to make a transfer). Parts of the ROW could even comprise underground stations with proper ventilation (chiefly the Yonge-Finch interchange). Each of these could reach the $100 million range, but it is unlikely anywhere other than Yonge will need a below-grade station. Apart from those, any extra spending stems from how much we want to lavish upon individual stations. Features such as automatic sliding doors at boarding interface, display panels, fare collection readers, security cameras, emergency callbox, full A/C, heated shelters, turnstiles, etc. would run up costs. But if treated more like simple bus shelters on a transit-only ROW the costing need not exceed $1 billion for 32 kilometres of service, before vehicles and predictable TTC budget overruns.
I don't really think NIMBYism need come into play here as sound barriers along the guideway would reduce the ambient noise of passingby BRT vehicles to near inaudible levels and the newer hydrid electric-diesel buses are quieter by default. Also the sight of buses can't be any more preturbing than staring at electrical towers in one's backyard, can it? Finally the BRT won't take up all the land area of the F.H.C. all things considered. Only 13.5 metres average need be set aside for regular lanes and passing lanes. Stations depending on location will also take up little space. So there'd still be room for parkspace and recreational usage including significant parts of the Norfinch Sports Fields and NY Civic Soccer Fields depending on route configuration through these stretches. At the very least, I take it as a good sign that HONE has granted permission to use part of the stretch for York U BRT which will still be in use even after the subway's completed. If they're willing to incorporate transit here then theyjust may permit a full crosstown proposal, funded entirely with the already allocated TC monies that would have gone towards FWLRT only covering half the distance.
And there that's my bit for now until I post a formal outline of my proposal, incorporating some constructive feedback I hope.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
Anyone else find it odd that for the Etobicoke Finch LRT open house scheduled for today no presentation material has been posted on the website? Anyone going tonight at 7pm?
W. K. Lis
Superstar
The display panels, in PDF form, are now available for download at this link.
The original west terminal was to have been on Highway 27 at Humber College Boulevard. Now it has gone into the college campus (taking over a parking lot and putting in paradise?). Good location for a badly needed hockey arena, by taking over another parking lot. Hope the other parking lots will also be turned over for better uses than just cars.
The original west terminal was to have been on Highway 27 at Humber College Boulevard. Now it has gone into the college campus (taking over a parking lot and putting in paradise?). Good location for a badly needed hockey arena, by taking over another parking lot. Hope the other parking lots will also be turned over for better uses than just cars.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
I wonder how they plan to cross the Humber south of Humber College? They are saying the alignment supports extensions to Woodbine Live and the airport which maybe means a new bridge across the valley to connect Arboretum to Rexdale or Humberwood?
Fresh Start
Banned
Wow, what a joke. Even the TTC readily admits that the maximum peak hourly demand for this corridor is only 2800pphpd, barely the realm for BRT operations yet alone LRT which should only come to play over 5000pphpd. Underground connection to Finch West Stn? What? Referring to p.20 of the report, all those interregional connections are still achievable via the F.H.C. In fact that stop spacing is more what a true rapid transit crosstown service should be looking like, and could be possible through the F.H.C. with parallel local service along Finch proper. And the LRT vehicles displayed carrying upto 260 passengers per trip? Has it occured to the TTC/City that several renown cities around the world including Curitiba, Brazil; Pittsburg; Brisbane, Australia; Bigota, Colombia among others have mastered for decades now how to operate biarticulated buses capable of carrying 275 passengers per trip. BRT also allots all-door boarding, hybird electric energy saving vehicles and lower construction, operating and maintenence costs than LRT. I have yet to be engaged in debate with just what precisely Transit City has to offer that BRT won't, particularly in Finch's case.
And rational thinking individuals suggested a subway line for Finch? Interesting math the TTC gave in reposnse though, $40 million/km for LRT and $220 million/km for underground HRT. I hope certain people here are taking notice of the revisionist history and retconing the TTC does with the numbers every time their desired results are at stake. Either they're not to be trusted or suddenly subways (in the proper suitable corridors, mind you) are suddenly as expensive as previously thought. Regardless if they're really concerned about saving the gov't money, why jump from local bus to LRT without BRT that can built for $10 million/km, even down the median of Finch, if the F.H.C. is not an option. Beautification shouldn't be tied to transit projects, locally spaced bus stops shouldn't have to lost along Finch proper, and long-haul commuters from airport, Woodbridge, Brampton or Malton shouldn't have to endure a longer commute than they reasonably have to (55 mins on the LRT vs. 30 on F.H.C. BRT to Yonge St).
And rational thinking individuals suggested a subway line for Finch? Interesting math the TTC gave in reposnse though, $40 million/km for LRT and $220 million/km for underground HRT. I hope certain people here are taking notice of the revisionist history and retconing the TTC does with the numbers every time their desired results are at stake. Either they're not to be trusted or suddenly subways (in the proper suitable corridors, mind you) are suddenly as expensive as previously thought. Regardless if they're really concerned about saving the gov't money, why jump from local bus to LRT without BRT that can built for $10 million/km, even down the median of Finch, if the F.H.C. is not an option. Beautification shouldn't be tied to transit projects, locally spaced bus stops shouldn't have to lost along Finch proper, and long-haul commuters from airport, Woodbridge, Brampton or Malton shouldn't have to endure a longer commute than they reasonably have to (55 mins on the LRT vs. 30 on F.H.C. BRT to Yonge St).