Extending Hwy 400 South

[sixrings]

I'm afraid the only way to properly deal with Allen is either to get rid of it, and instead use Bathurst and Dufferin, and improve the intersection between those and the 401.

Or extend Allen further south ...

so your solution i take it is to remove the allen completely. personally i would think a ideal solution for eglinton would be to remove the north bound allen from eglinton. this would remove the allen traffic north bound on eglinton. people could still use the allen to get into toronto. but to leave the city they would have to access the allen via lawrence with new on ramps or chose bathurst or dufferin. essentially this idea spreads out the traffic versus keeping it all on eglinton.

 

[Rainforest]

What most people forget is that ultimately it is the limited capacity of Eglinton that has caused the gridlock at the end of Allen Road. The volume of traffic heading south on the Allen during rush hour far exceeds the capacity of Eglinton to absorb this traffic. A fully grade separated offramp with no traffic lights would simply move the start of the traffic jam slightly downstream to the first traffic light on Eglinton.

Totally agree.

Even the city's plan to widen the westbound onramp will have limited success because Eglinton can only move so many cars westbound toward the Allen in the afternoon.

Here, I would disagree. Widening the westbound onrump should reduce the car congestion on Eglinton, as the cars will exit Eglinton faster. I don't think it will bring a lot of new cars to Eglinton, as all bottlenecks before that ramp remain in place.

Making Eglinton a 5 lane contraflow street like what Jarvis used to be would help. As would removing the crosswalk along the north side of Eglinton at the onramp by building a bridge or trench for either cars or pedestrians. That would at least allow for a continuous flow of traffic northbound to the Allen from Eglinton.

The bridge or trench will be a little tricky to build, because of the limited space and the grade requirements.

 

[Rainforest]

I'm afraid the only way to properly deal with Allen is either to get rid of it, and instead use Bathurst and Dufferin, and improve the intersection between those and the 401.

Or extend Allen further south ...

Or, leave it alone : ) Extending Allen south would be expensive, and most importantly there is no other street that could absorb traffic fed by Allen without getting very congested. Bathurst and Davenport are not particularly wide, and are already congested at certain points. Allen traffic will make it much worse.

On the other hand, removing Allen would cost money and obviously won't improve the traffic flow; so, perhaps it is better to build some transit with those money instead : )

 

[W. K. Lis]

Agreed, except where minor tweaks would offer major gains. Grade separating intersections along Black Creek would offer large time savings (especially northbound) without adding lanes or occupying developable land with roadways. I'm all for an idea like that, even if the speed limit is put at 60 km/hr.

Meanwhile, add stops on the Barrie GO line where it crosses Eglinton and St. Clair, and allow free transfers to shave an hour off of the commute by TTC.

There then would be the problem of congestion on Weston Road/Keele Street below Black Creek Drive. Already the traffic is terrible, having grade separations on Black Creek above Rogers Road will only add to the congestion.

Personally, they should improve the left and right turn lanes, or add more turn lanes.

Then there is a problem with parking on Weston Road in the non-rush hour. They could eliminate them, but then would have to provide off-street parking for the residents in the vicinity.

BTW, why do drivers make a left turn from the southbound Keele Street to eastbound Dundas Street West? I always drive down to Annette Street and turn left from at that intersection.

 

[Johnny Au]

Marlee Avenue is a good bypass for Allen Road between Eglinton and Lawrence, though it is a collector route that has 5 traffic lights: one at Lawrence, one at Glencairn, one at Ridelle, one at Roselawn, and one at Eglinton.

 

[adma]

Marlee is also the cause for some pretty terrible bottlenecks w/southbound traffic getting off the Allen and trying to get into the Lawrence left-turn lane for Marlee. So, watch it with that recommendation.

 

[Johnny Au]

Some of the bottleneck may also come from Lawrence Square as well. Therefore, there should be better ways to alleviate traffic on the Allen, which may involve reconfiguring Marlee Avenue, Lawrence Square, and the fuelling stations even. Howard Moscoe once suggested to remove Lawrence Square, replace it with an extension of Marlee, and possibly reroute the southbound ramp onto the extended Marlee Avenue to ease the bottleneck.

 

[sixrings]

im pretty sure moscoe was advocating getting rid of the allen south of lawrence as well. i could live with that proposal. finally buid some proper on and off ramps at lawrence and fill in from lawrence to eglinton with condos or townhouses.

 

[Johnny Au]

I agree with Howard Moscoe. There is always Marlee Avenue!

 

[accura407]

Here's a crazy idea that i've had in my mind for a long time!

Remove Allen Road from Eglinton to Rainee Ave. Turn Allen Road into a 4 lane tree-lined road (with bike lanes south of Rainee Ave) that transitions to go above the subway and slowly curves west and connects with Marlee Ave. Once the road is build on top of the subway line, the trenched space on both sides of the subway (current allen road) would be reallocated to development. So from south of Rainee all the way to Eglinton West, the line will be decked over...Remove Lawrence Square and connect with Marlee.

There would be 2 traffic lights south of Rainee then Lawrence Ave. This would allow traffic to distribute into multiple points rather than all piling up on lawrence. At Marlee i guess the road would drop from a 4 lane boulevard into its existing setup. A natural progression from 4 lane to 2 lane to nothing (at eglinton) would be far better for that area instead of a 4 lane controlled access road ending in a T-junction at Eglinton.

Fill in the gaps from Rainee to Eglinton properly with a mixed blend of townhomes (bid-block) and small condos (glencairn) and skyscraper condos/offices (lawrence west & eglinton west). Patch up the community together in a way that would almost seem like there was never an expressway there in the first place...

But here is the crazy idea...

In exchange for destroying a short-stub expressway, we complete the extension of hwy 400 south to the gardiner (tunnel south of Rogers Rd). I would think that the amount of freed up land along the current allen corridor and an existing subway line would be in the billions and so what we do is trade the land for finishing the 400 south to gardiner. It would still be a toll road and probably privately financed but at least half of its capital costs would be derived from simply swapping land for road.

The road can be either 4 lanes or 6 lanes tunneled. The route from Jane south to Eglinton is ready for freewaylization. From Eglinton to Rogers road will take a bit of re-arranging or expropriation. South of that would be tunneled under the railroad/or keele st/or some other route. The tolls can be as high as 407 or even higher...it is purely a luxury route. If cars NEED to access downtown urgently or GO Buses need to make a trip to Union or long distance coach buses, or whatever other cause, they can use this complete route.

This would accomplish many objectives

A) Spadina subway will finally be recognized as an important commuter route with the transit oriented development that will be placed around each of its stations en route. It will probably rival ridership levels of the current bloor-danforth or would i dare say portions of the Yonge line.

B) It would complete a vital and missing link that has been poorly served by an incomplete stub (Allen Road) and an arterial road (Black Creek Drive). Why have 2 incomplete roadways with no purpose than have 1 complete roadway with so much purpose.

C) It would finally end the traffic mayham and bring some peace to the current Allen road corridor which has a transit route but still has significant disruptions in traffic.

Allen Road was inconceivable from the start. Such a poor idea, Metro Toronto should have focused on completing important corridors like 400 south of the scarborough expressway instead of starting a mid-town mess. It goes nowhere north and nowhere south. It is pointless...So might as well erase it, capitalize on the subway route along it, and complete the corridor a few km west of it along a more logical route choice...400 south.

That is my crazy idea...

 

[hawc]

Toronto desperately need a western link that will connect its downtown with the western suburbs.

No it doesn't.

The harder it is for them to commute the better.

You want to work in Toronto? Live in Toronto. You want to live in the suburbs? Work in the suburbs.

Commuting 50 km + a day is destroying this planet and is completely unsustainable.

Why encourage an environmentally ruinious lifestyle?

 

[jwill]

Its a bit of an exaggeration to say that selling off Allen Road will bring in enough money to pay for a 4 lane road tunnel to carry the 404 downtown. You'd be lucky to cover the property costs for all the vent shafts and a couple exit ramps.

 

[junctionist]

That is my crazy idea...

I liked it until it got crazy--the 400 extension as a luxury route subsidized by development in the Allen corridor. Urbanizing the Spadina line in the way you describe is a satisfying vision, but there's no need to keep propping up the car-oriented suburban lifestyle. Freeway links to the Gardiner exist. We need this metropolis to finally go the transit-oriented that Premier Bill Davis chose when he cancelled the expressway.

 

[accura407]

I liked it until it got crazy--the 400 extension as a luxury route subsidized by development in the Allen corridor. Urbanizing the Spadina line in the way you describe is a satisfying vision, but there's no need to keep propping up the car-oriented suburban lifestyle. Freeway links to the Gardiner exist. We need this metropolis to finally go the transit-oriented that Premier Bill Davis chose when he cancelled the expressway.

I am not saying that we need the 400 south extension as a commuter route. That is why i am proposing that it has tolls as high as necessary. What it is brings is a critical artery that can allow vehicles to travel. This does not mean single car commuters but rather...

Carpoolers, Transit Buses, Coach Buses, Small Trucks, Big Trucks, Maintainence Vehicles, Small Business Vehicles...

Whatever the case maybe...you cannot expect to grow Toronto by the millions, not to mention we have so many trucks in this region, and think that not a single ounce of capacity is required.

I know it is a tough pill for many to swallow on this forum but you cannot just keep removing road capacity without substituting it. Freight does not travel on subways or streetcar tracks. Carpoolers will never take transit because they know that their formula of sharing a ride with 3-4 people works better.

Everyone keeps citing Europe but last time i checked ONLY LONDON has ZERO freeways in the core. One person keeps citing PARIS...that place is full of freeways. Anyone seen a map of Madrid? How about the cities in the Netherlands?

The focus should not be about eliminating freeways but rather RE-ALLOCATING THE USE OF THE FACILITY. This means, decrease single driver commuters, increase carpoolers and buses, give priority to freight so that we don't lose 6 BILLION DOLLARS A DAY in Trade because of congestion.

Whoever thinks that Today's 5 Million+ Population Toronto can operate properly with a roadway infrastructure built for 2.5 Million+ Population Toronto is insane. Do we need to build highways everywhere? No. But at the very least if you remove capacity in one location you need to allocate it to another. Replacement at the very least is vital. Take out a lane here, Add a lane there.

Last thing...I never said the allen rd lands would pay for a toll tunnel, but it would bring in a hefty amount of funds for sure...

 

[hawc]

If you had to extend the 400 South this is what I propose:

Run it down Black Creek and Weston. You're not exactly cutting through Forest Hill. Then keep it going down Keel to Bloor. But at Bloor, you run it underground underneath Parkside Drive since it's High Park. Then join up with the Gardiner.