Extending Hwy 400 South

[MisterF]

Many great cities have both though. Think Madrid for instance, it has a very extensive subway/commuter rail/light rail system that covers virtually all the urban area, it also has a very extensive motorway network including a short section of tunnel on the inner ring road (M-30). In cities with high investment in both, public transport and roads serve very different purposes, with transit largely serving travel to and within dense urban centres while roads serving more suburb to suburb traffic, travel to industrial areas and commercial vehicle/truck traffic. Transit will never come close to eliminating the need for cars. Typically cities like Madrid with excellent transit have about a 50-50 split between public transport and car travel.

Nobody said that transit will eliminate the need for cars. Let's not resort to straw men here. A 400 extension wouldn't serve the type of traffic you describe is ideal for roads very well. It would serve suburb-to-downtown traffic, which as you say is better suited for transit. Madrid has far more investment in heavy rail than Toronto does, and is one example of how underdeveloped our rail transit system is. While Madrid's outer suburbs are served well by metro, Toronto's more sprawling suburbs are better served by upgraded regional trains.

Think the endless proposals to tear down the Gardiner, the cancellation of the Front Street Extension, the cancellation of proposals to widen the DVP from 3 to 4 lanes each way, the narrowing of 4 lane roads to 2 lanes + an underused bicycle lane, and the "pedestrian scrambles" downtown that create huge traffic jams.

While I don't think tearing down the Gardiner is necessary, it wouldn't cause major delays. There's not much through traffic on the Gardiner. Most of it is exiting onto downtown streets. Widening the DVP would be useless for relieving traffic and just cause more car traffic downtown and create new bottlenecks. Pedestrian scrambles are in places with heavy pedestrian traffic, where there are often more pedestrians than motorists, on top of rapid transit. You complain of car traffic jams, but what about pedestrian traffic jams? And finally, 2 lane roads with left turn lanes often run more smoothly than 4 lane roads without them. Intersection design is more important than the number of through lanes.

London is not an example that we want to emulate. Due to its terrible road network (worst of any major city in the developed world I think) and having the highest parking costs in the world and very high congestion charge people are basically forced to use London's extensive but very mediocre transit system despite overcrowding, endless technical problems on the tube, endless weekend tube maintenance, and high fares. Also London has an insanely high cost of living because of ridiculously strict greenbelt regulations, forcing people to commute very long distances to work.

London's greenbelt legislation and the age of its Underground have nothing to do with the lack of highways into its core. And if London built new highways to the core, its central streets would probably become even more congested and parking demand and prices would go up. My point remains - you can build a major world city without freeways going downtown.

 

[Mulder]

I think I have suggested this a few times here.

However my suggestion was more about making proper highway interchanges at Lawrence, Tretheway, and Eglinton. I believe these suggestions won't hurt any communities as that roadway already exists.

Then again, it has been 4 years since I drove that route daily. I'm not sure what type of new housing construction has gone on since. There had been many times it had taken me 20+ minutes to get to Lawrence from the Tretheway, simply because of the short light.

 

[Towered]

Absolutely no more highways within Toronto, whether new ones or expansion of existing ones. Post war city planners unleashed a nightmare upon us that we are suffering today with their short sighted auto-centric approach. Our focus should be entirely on mass transit expansion from now on.

 

[Chuck]

Absolutely no more highways within Toronto, whether new ones or expansion of existing ones. Post war city planners unleashed a nightmare upon us that we are suffering today with their short sighted auto-centric approach. Our focus should be entirely on mass transit expansion from now on.

Agreed, except where minor tweaks would offer major gains. Grade separating intersections along Black Creek would offer large time savings (especially northbound) without adding lanes or occupying developable land with roadways. I'm all for an idea like that, even if the speed limit is put at 60 km/hr.

Meanwhile, add stops on the Barrie GO line where it crosses Eglinton and St. Clair, and allow free transfers to shave an hour off of the commute by TTC.

 

[gweed123]

Agreed, except where minor tweaks would offer major gains. Grade separating intersections along Black Creek would offer large time savings (especially northbound) without adding lanes or occupying developable land with roadways. I'm all for an idea like that, even if the speed limit is put at 60 km/hr.

Meanwhile, add stops on the Barrie GO line where it crosses Eglinton and St. Clair, and allow free transfers to shave an hour off of the commute by TTC.

Agreed. I also think that additional road-rail grade separations should be implemented as well. That kind of falls into both the transit improvement and road improvement categories.

I think that at this point the only large-scale road infrastructure project that I would support would be widening the DVP by 1 lane in each direction to add a carpool and bus lane the entire stretch of the highway. Again, falls into both the road improvement as well as transit improvement category.

 

[dunkalunk]

I also like the idea of grade separating Black Creek to Weston Road or maybe even putting roundabouts on it and the idea of putting carpool/bus lanes on the DVP.

However, I think the single cheapest fix that Toronto could put into its road network would be to fix the terminus of the Allen:

 

[sixrings]

Other then removing the allen from lawrence to eglinton, I think this is the best solution to the allen problem. However I would add a second roundabout for the south bound allen. Also it would be perfect if after the LRT was built there was no need for the bus terminal. Its hard to imagine busses navagating the roundabout.

 

[drum118]

Other then removing the allen from lawrence to eglinton, I think this is the best solution to the allen problem. However I would add a second roundabout for the south bound allen. Also it would be perfect if after the LRT was built there was no need for the bus terminal. Its hard to imagine busses navagating the roundabout.

Please visit Mississauga Roundabout to see how MT operates their buses in it that includes 60' buses with no problems. Then watch how GO buses use it. There a video in the Roundabout thread in the Transportation section Shot Oct 01.

This video was shot at the opening on Aug 22 of the Roundabout and at .55 you can see an articulated bus being the first bus to use this Roundabout. Roundabout is the way to go these days.
[video=youtube;va4lPmUfzs4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va4lPmUfzs4[/video]

 

[Jonny5]

In case anyone missed it, council just approved the plan in the report linked below to fiddle with the northbound Allen ramps at Eglinton again.

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2011/te/bgrd/backgroundfile-40377.pdf

 

[sixrings]

I would think roundabouts at Oakwood, Marlee, ALlen Southbound, Allen Northbound makes a ton of sense and more sense then the approved toronto report. It might cost some money to buy the commercial property across from both oakwood or marlee in order to fit in the roundabouts, but it could be part of a redevelopment plan. It would help traffic flow immensly. 4 T stops in such a small area really cause congestion.

 

[Hipster Duck]

I could be mistaken, but I think roundabouts are pretty bad at handling intersections with high traffic volumes, due to the constant merging and exiting of cars. Eglinton and Allen is just such an intersection, mostly due to through traffic on Eglinton.

I like dunkalunk's idea of having right-turning (westbound) traffic using the existing exit and moving the left-turning (eastbound) traffic to the eastern side of Eglinton West station where a large, grassy median exists today. I think that the most effective thing to do over there, however, would be to turn it into a two-lane left-turn only signal, rather than build a roundabout.

 

[dunkalunk]

@ Hipster Duck. We'll see how the experiment of 2 3-lane roundabouts goes at the corner of Ottawa and Fisher-Hallman in Kitchener, also by coincidence one of the city's most dangerous intersections.

 

[sixrings]

my mistake, I now see how DUNKALUNKs ONE roundabout fixes both allen issues... IM IN AGREEMENT WITH THIS IDEA!!! CAll MIKE COLLE.............!

 

[Chuck]

What most people forget is that ultimately it is the limited capacity of Eglinton that has caused the gridlock at the end of Allen Road. The volume of traffic heading south on the Allen during rush hour far exceeds the capacity of Eglinton to absorb this traffic. A fully grade separated offramp with no traffic lights would simply move the start of the traffic jam slightly downstream to the first traffic light on Eglinton. Even the city's plan to widen the westbound onramp will have limited success because Eglinton can only move so many cars westbound toward the Allen in the afternoon.

Making Eglinton a 5 lane contraflow street like what Jarvis used to be would help. As would removing the crosswalk along the north side of Eglinton at the onramp by building a bridge or trench for either cars or pedestrians. That would at least allow for a continuous flow of traffic northbound to the Allen from Eglinton. As for southbound traffic on the Allen, the best solution is to be smart and get off the 401 at Avenue Road!

 

[nfitz]

I'm afraid the only way to properly deal with Allen is either to get rid of it, and instead use Bathurst and Dufferin, and improve the intersection between those and the 401.

Or extend Allen further south ...