Eglinton East LRT | Metrolinx

[mossynukes]

we should scrap the EELRT and spend the money on a line 4 east extension and better bus service/infrastructure for Scarborough

 

[turini2]

Wow - I'm surprised to see that they've now landed on the Sheppard East LRT being part of this, rather than a possible add on! Hopefully that finally puts an end to the Sheppard East drama, and the province can focus on a subway extension to Downsview.

(The LRT only goes as far as Sheppard-McCowan, where the provincial proposal for a subway also ends. The proposal of subway from Don Mills to McCowan remains)

 

[W. K. Lis]

As much as I agree with the vehicle speeds point - Toronto has not yet seen a proper light rail and the knock on effect of it on the built environment. Reliability is better than buses, higher passenger capacity, improved streetscape/urban realm, spurred development etc.

I do think that this project would be revolutionary for Scarborough + Malvern - especially now that disconnecting it from Line 5 actually allows it to be built slightly easier...

The problem is with the Toronto Transportation Department and MTO with their bias for the almighty automobile and undermining of public transit. No real or very limited transit priority on the roads. Underfunding of the TTC, so they don't have funds for double-point track switches.No priority for public transit vehicles in general at subway stations. They could have proper light rail, IF, and it is a big IF, the TTC gets the support & funds it needs to delivery quality service.

 

[turini2]

I think if we're going to do higher order transit here, we need to establish that it provides a material time savings to riders and will materially boost ridership volume. I'm not entirely convinced it will do either.

I hope that Finch West will demonstrate the benefits of replacing high ridership bus corridors with light rail sooner rather than later - bus lanes can only go so far (even with express buses and artics) compared to a proper segregated tram with TSP!

It's a lot harder to water down a LRT than a BRT - the BRT creep problem!

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

New Eglinton East LRT Website Dropped:

Eglinton East Light Rail Transit

December Update: City Council has approved staff recommendations for the alignment (route) for the Eglinton East Light Rail Transit project and next steps. A copy of the staff report is available at Item – 2023.EX10.17 – Advancing Eglinton East Light Rail Transit. The City of Toronto and the...

www.toronto.ca

Some basic notes, the platforms are confirmed to only be 50m long, and the line will "allegedly" feature TSP.
There is also this line justifying making this line separate from the ECLRT:

• Vehicle performance can be tailored to the needs of the corridor, including the steep grades along Morningside and multiple turns.

This means that they are likely not looking towards making this line compatible with the ECLRT.

Here's the new official map:

It seems like because this is a separate line, they now have to build it all at once instead of phases due to the location of the MSF.
It also looks like they're planning on holding a virtual public meetings on May 30, June 1, and June 7.

Also a bit of a side note, but I feel like they should build this line using TTC Gauge and TTC Streetcar standards. That way we could potentially connect this up to a future Kingston Road Streetcar extension.
Edit: Plus I imagine the specs of the the TTC Streetcars could potentially help out with some problematic sections of the line such as the turn onto Military Trail from Ellesmere

Accurate Take

https://twitter.com/x/status/1658531677948239878

Brutal by the city and Metrolinx. Metrolinx for doing what they want yet again, and not paying attention. And the city/TTC for punking out bascially because they don't want to operate a line from Morningside/Sheppard to the Airport. That's what this is all about.

we should scrap the EELRT and spend the money on a line 4 east extension and better bus service/infrastructure for Scarborough

No way. There is no ridership east of McCowan to justify it.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Brutal by the city and Metrolinx. Metrolinx for doing what they want yet again, and not paying attention. And the city/TTC for punking out bascially because they don't want to operate a line from Morningside/Sheppard to the Airport. That's what this is all about.

No way. There is no ridership east of McCowan to justify it.

Not if the city changes the zoning to a higher density, especially with all those parking lots waiting to be re-developed.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Just curious, what makes Ellesmere a major stop?

No way. There is no ridership east of McCowan to justify it.

Of course there is ridership east of McCowan, it should be extended all the way to Rouge Hill GO.

 

[mossynukes]

Brutal by the city and Metrolinx. Metrolinx for doing what they want yet again, and not paying attention. And the city/TTC for punking out bascially because they don't want to operate a line from Morningside/Sheppard to the Airport. That's what this is all about.

No way. There is no ridership east of McCowan to justify it.

not necessarily east of Mccowan (yet), East to Mcowan

 

[LemonCondo]

I looked at the corridor again recently.

The fact that Eglinton East LRT is not an elevated extension of Line 5 is absolutely insane. Its so damn wide, and there is nothing in the way.

Forced transfer, incompatible infrastructure. Would not be surprised if the city made it even more stupid by making it Toronto gauge and use Outlooks on it. It won't be faster then BRT, and it will cost three times as much.

 

[Voltz]

we should scrap the EELRT and spend the money on a line 4 east extension and better bus service/infrastructure for Scarborough

No,

Eglinton east of Kennedy is one of the busiest bus corridors in the city, it will need the capacity of LRT, and Sheppard does not need the subway.

 

[ARG1]

As much as I agree with the vehicle speeds point - Toronto has not yet seen a proper light rail and the knock on effect of it on the built environment. Reliability is better than buses, higher passenger capacity, improved streetscape/urban realm, spurred development etc.

I do think that this project would be revolutionary for Scarborough + Malvern - especially now that disconnecting it from Line 5 actually allows it to be built slightly easier...

@Northern Light Covered most of the important bits, but its important to reiterate that outside of higher passenger capacity, all of these benefits could be achieved with BRT. Just ask YRT about how they managed to build a ton of TOD off the back of some of the worst BRT on the continent.

I hope that Finch West will demonstrate the benefits of replacing high ridership bus corridors with hight rail sooner rather than later - bus lanes can only go so far (even with express buses and artics) compared to a proper segregated tram with TSP!

It's a lot harder to water down a LRT than a BRT - the BRT creep problem!

LRT Creep is something that exists just as much as BRT Creep does. You could always disable TSP, reduce headways, reduce service speed with awful mandates (see the 512 with this last point). In the case of Eglinton East, you can build a Viva style BRT with bus lanes in the median and center stations just like you would with an LRT, and outside of demolishing the thing, you have very few options to degrade the service in a way that couldn't be done with LRT.

I looked at the corridor again recently.

The fact that Eglinton East LRT is not an elevated extension of Line 5 is absolutely insane. Its so damn wide, and there is nothing in the way.

I don't say it lightly when I say that Eglinton East is probably the one LRT corridor in this city that probably doesn't need to be elevated. In terms of rapid transit, we already have the SSE, and 2 GO Train lines, so the purpose of the EELRT theoretically is to be less longer distance Rapid Transit, and more of a local/feeder service that can move people around the local community, and for those who need to travel long distances, they would use the service to either reach Line 2 or LSE.

Forced transfer, incompatible infrastructure. Would not be surprised if the city made it even more stupid by making it Toronto gauge and use Outlooks on it. It won't be faster then BRT, and it will cost three times as much.

I think using Outlooks and TTC Gauge would actually be smart, you can extend the Kingston Streetcar up to Eglinton and do some nice interlining. I think the biggest mistake of our other LRT lines is that they don't stick to the TTC Specifications (although we could do without single directional cars). That being said, ye its a big question of how soon the LRT is actually needed; probably not for another 20 years.

No,

Eglinton east of Kennedy is one of the busiest bus corridors in the city, it will need the capacity of LRT, and Sheppard does not need the subway.

We've had this discussion before, so I'll keep it brief.
How certain are you that this will remain true after GO Expansion and SSE? After these projects complete, we should be expecting a large change in ridership patterns. To use an example I have used before, students travelling from UTSC to Kennedy will likely use the DSBRT+Line 2 rather than take the Eglinton East bus all the way to Kennedy. Not to mention, for those commuting downtown, the ridership will likely only travel to stations like Guildwood. Everyone else will be local travellers who could benefit from the LRT, but I doubt there will be demand such that an LRT would be strictly necessary. We have to be looking at this through the lens of what ridership will look like in >2031, not what it is today.

 

[mossynukes]

Eglinton does not need an LRT slower than an express bus, and a line 5 extension is impossible. The eglinton east LRT is a huge waste of money. Sheppard does deserve the subway to STC and that was always the plan for 20 years.

No,

Eglinton east of Kennedy is one of the busiest bus corridors in the city, it will need the capacity of LRT, and Sheppard does not need the subway.

 

[Northern Light]

Eglinton does not need an LRT slower than an express bus, and a line 5 extension is impossible. The eglinton east LRT is a huge waste of money. Sheppard does deserve the subway to STC and that was always the plan for 20 years.

While I think the gist of your idea is in the right place, may I suggest the word 'deserve' is a poor choice.

Its subjective, its also a bit inflammatory.

My convenience is more important that yours kinda sounding.

I don't doubt you didn't mean it in that that way, but as with some other posters belittling Scarborough because Mississauga deserves......it just reads poorly.

I think it works better if you cite studies, research, EAs and look at hard numbers; or absent that, at least lay out the case.

I think the case for extending line 4 to Victoria Park is strong, as is the case for extending it west (mostly for access to Wilson Yard, but with the added redundancy in terms of connecting the eastern and western sides of Line 1) the 'bonus' being a Bathurst, and possibly Senlac Station.

When you get east of VP the numbers deteriorate, relative to other priorities, such as a northern extension of the O/L to Line 4; and a westerly extension of Line 2 to East Mall.

At some level, hard numbers aside, there is a bit of guess work and preference. {where would you like to direct intensification).

But lets please try to stay away from 'deserve' as a word in these debates.

 

[Voltz]

Eglinton does not need an LRT slower than an express bus, and a line 5 extension is impossible. The eglinton east LRT is a huge waste of money. Sheppard does deserve the subway to STC and that was always the plan for 20 years.

If there has ever been a study that shows Sheppard will have enough ridership demand to require a subway, then I've never seen it, it's been planned for political reasons.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

@Northern Light Covered most of the important bits, but its important to reiterate that outside of higher passenger capacity, all of these benefits could be achieved with BRT. Just ask YRT about how they managed to build a ton of TOD off the back of some of the worst BRT on the continent.

LRT Creep is something that exists just as much as BRT Creep does. You could always disable TSP, reduce headways, reduce service speed with awful mandates (see the 512 with this last point). In the case of Eglinton East, you can build a Viva style BRT with bus lanes in the median and center stations just like you would with an LRT, and outside of demolishing the thing, you have very few options to degrade the service in a way that couldn't be done with LRT.

I don't say it lightly when I say that Eglinton East is probably the one LRT corridor in this city that probably doesn't need to be elevated. In terms of rapid transit, we already have the SSE, and 2 GO Train lines, so the purpose of the EELRT theoretically is to be less longer distance Rapid Transit, and more of a local/feeder service that can move people around the local community, and for those who need to travel long distances, they would use the service to either reach Line 2 or LSE.

I think using Outlooks and TTC Gauge would actually be smart, you can extend the Kingston Streetcar up to Eglinton and do some nice interlining. I think the biggest mistake of our other LRT lines is that they don't stick to the TTC Specifications (although we could do without single directional cars). That being said, ye its a big question of how soon the LRT is actually needed; probably not for another 20 years.

We've had this discussion before, so I'll keep it brief.
How certain are you that this will remain true after GO Expansion and SSE? After these projects complete, we should be expecting a large change in ridership patterns. To use an example I have used before, students travelling from UTSC to Kennedy will likely use the DSBRT+Line 2 rather than take the Eglinton East bus all the way to Kennedy. Not to mention, for those commuting downtown, the ridership will likely only travel to stations like Guildwood. Everyone else will be local travellers who could benefit from the LRT, but I doubt there will be demand such that an LRT would be strictly necessary. We have to be looking at this through the lens of what ridership will look like in >2031, not what it is today.

See if the city was thinking smart like you here then I would be fine with this. Use TTC gauge, extend the 503 to Malvern as well. But they're going to use standard gauge, which is ridiculous. Like I said before, MX and others are trying to make LRT look as bad as possible in the GTHA with some of the decisions being made. I think MX should be forced to extend the crosstown but they would screw that up too.

And the TTC is not without fault here. There's a transfer at Kennedy because the line will be too long without one.