Dundas West/ Bloor Mobility Hub +interconnected hub network (Metrolinx)

[crs1026]

There is an interesting development going on at High Park and Bloor, where the back alley is being redeveloped into micro-retail, leaving the streetfront itself unchanged. Depending where the new station is located, I could see a similar concept used to build an 'alleyway' between the two stations.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

Why not just tunnel (with a shield) east from the ends of the subway platforms adjacent to the running tunnels until under the Metrolinx RoW and *then* put an elevator and stairway(s) up to the existing Bloor West tunnels? It will make the ticket barriers a bit more involved than the previous concept, but be far easier in the long-run, not least because beside having to be signed-off by engineers and authorities, it doesn't need the co-operation or permission from Crossways.

The initial concern would be the type of soil being present to effectively and safely tunnel, but the running tunnel bores went through with no known issues. If a tunneling shield is used and the soil is homogeneous, perhaps one of the tunnels (most likely the southernmost), once connected to the extant tunnel underneath Bloor Station, can be pushed through to Lansdowne Station and connect underground to the new GO station on the Barrie Line. If it aligns next to one of the running tunnels, soil conditions will already be fully documented and catalogued, albeit supplemented by updated vertical test bores to prove the case.

Might there be unexpected complications? Doubtless, so will there be opening up the basement of Crossways and doing the connection as now conceived. Tunneling might in fact be the lesser challenge, and far less disruptive and expensive in the long term. Sections might have to be daylighted and cut-and-covered (retail outlets and stairways, for instance) but this form of connection works very well and has for well over a century in cities like London, New York and others.

https://swanboatsteve.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/198704sectionc.jpg

Edit to Add:

Just tripped across this:

Bloor-Davenport (Bloor St. near Lansdowne Ave.)
[...]
Subject to further analysis of corridor service implications and commitment by the City of Toronto to provide accessible, weather-protected, pedestrian connection to Lansdowne subway station

pdf pg 15, http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pd...ail&utm_term=0_43955045ad-37d0c8e754-94526533

Note "weather protected"...not "covered walkway" as another poster had claimed some weeks back.

I'd suggest the City, since it is cash strapped, rezone the affected area for massive redevelopment that requires the new (at least partial commercial) development to create pedestrian malls to connect both subway stations and both GO stations as part of the retail purpose, much like the PATH system downtown. I'd also advise it be mixed residential/commercial/employment:
http://www.toronto.ca/zoning/bylaw_amendments/ZBL_NewProvision_Chapter50.htm

 

[muller877]

Why not just tunnel (with a shield) east from the ends of the subway platforms adjacent to the running tunnels until under the Metrolinx RoW and *then* put an elevator and stairway(s) up to the existing Bloor West tunnels? It will make the ticket barriers a bit more involved than the previous concept, but be far easier in the long-run, not least because beside having to be signed-off by engineers and authorities, it doesn't need the co-operation or permission from Crossways.

Might there be unexpected complications? Doubtless, so will there be opening up the basement of Crossways and doing the connection as now conceived. Tunneling might in fact be the lesser challenge, and far less disruptive and expensive in the long term. Sections might have to be daylighted and cut-and-covered (retail outlets and stairways, for instance) but this form of connection works very well and has for well over a century in cities like London, New York and others.

https://swanboatsteve.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/198704sectionc.jpg

If you build a tunnel similar to how they built it for the Island Airport you can do so with a lot of precision on direction. You can be within a centimeter of expectation. So I agree with your thought.

there are a couple of downsides:
- which rights does the TTC own? Will they have to buy additional rights from Crossways for the tunnel (they own underneath their property...other than where the TTC bought the rights previously). But most likely a lot cheaper than using their building.
- Would need to hoard off a section of Dundas West Station for a year+. 1 subway car would not open at Dundas West station (but probably would have to happen in any type of build
- tunnel boring could only occur outside of TTC hours for safety (additional time)

I would also have a slight incline in the tunnel and a moving walkway. Incline so that the escalator at the end does not have to bee as long.

 

[vic]

Regarding connecting to Lansdowne station.... The GO station is currently planned to be on the SOUTH side of Bloor, so connecting that to any meaningful way to Bloor GO / Dundas West TTC would be tricky. And honestly, I don't see that as being worth the effort. For the few people that might need to connect between those lines, it would probably just be easier (and faster, depending on mobility) to do it at Union.

 

[W. K. Lis]

If they put in any moving sidewalk...

...in a couple of decades, they'll remove because it "cost to much" to maintain.

The accountants or penny-pinchers did that with the moving sidewalks between Line 1's Spadina station and Line 2's Spadina station.

 

[k10ery]

Regarding connecting to Lansdowne station.... The GO station is currently planned to be on the SOUTH side of Bloor, so connecting that to any meaningful way to Bloor GO / Dundas West TTC would be tricky. And honestly, I don't see that as being worth the effort. For the few people that might need to connect between those lines, it would probably just be easier (and faster, depending on mobility) to do it at Union.

Any insight from the local community on why Metrolinx is looking at such a southerly station? They do claim they want a connection to Lansdowne station (paid for by Toronto) so why not north of Bloor? Have they just not looked at a map?

 

[vic]

Any insight from the local community on why Metrolinx is looking at such a southerly station? They do claim they want a connection to Lansdowne station (paid for by Toronto) so why not north of Bloor? Have they just not looked at a map?

I assume it's just because they can't build the station on their proposed ramp/bridge. The berm starts ramping up almost immediately north of Bloor. So at best, I can see the end of the train stopping on the bridge over Bloor, or even just slightly north. You can see the location in this handout:
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/rer/20160118_Davenport_Public_Meeting_Handout_EN.pdf
Maps on Pages 5,8.

-Vic

 

[steveintoronto]

Regarding connecting to Lansdowne station.... The GO station is currently planned to be on the SOUTH side of Bloor, so connecting that to any meaningful way to Bloor GO / Dundas West TTC would be tricky. And honestly, I don't see that as being worth the effort. For the few people that might need to connect between those lines, it would probably just be easier (and faster, depending on mobility) to do it at Union.

You missed the larger picture:
[Bloor-Davenport (Bloor St. near Lansdowne Ave.)
[...]
Subject to further analysis of corridor service implications and commitment by the City of Toronto to provide accessible, weather-protected, pedestrian connection to Lansdowne subway station]
pdf pg 15, http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pd...ail&utm_term=0_43955045ad-37d0c8e754-94526533

It's not a connection between Bloor and Davenport/Lansdowne GO stations, it's connections from each two subway/GO connections tied together in a mall, covered walkway shopfront PATH type promenade.

And done by the private sector as part of the redevelopment of the area. I was just discussing this with an architect forty minutes ago. His quibble was not with the connections, that's 'de-riguer'...what isn't is sanitized high-rises or office towers. The development would have to be exciting and inviting, so tunnel sections would just be stubs to connect mall areas to the stations.

New York especially is doing this right now, albeit I'll reference where it's been a success or not later.

 

[steveintoronto]

Any insight from the local community on why Metrolinx is looking at such a southerly station? They do claim they want a connection to Lansdowne station (paid for by Toronto) so why not north of Bloor? Have they just not looked at a map?

Yeah, was just discussing this, and my guess is that they've only glanced at the map, not done in-depth studies on that. That area is *ripe* for the "hub" they're talking about in the area. There's new residences north and south of Bloor to the west of the RoW, both rather austere and very uninviting, but they are new, and would have to be included in the revitalization of the area.

I'd be *very* surprised if a developer doesn't approach the City with a massive redevelopment proposal for the area, so much of the area is so wanting. I work just to the SW of there with an architecture firm doing in part...wait for it...refurbishing old factories for commercial re-use. Unfortunately most of the classic factory space around there is now gone, what's left will just be bulldozed for brownfield. Sterling Rd is somewhat luckier.

 

[steveintoronto]

I assume it's just because they can't build the station on their proposed ramp/bridge. The berm starts ramping up almost immediately north of Bloor. So at best, I can see the end of the train stopping on the bridge over Bloor, or even just slightly north. You can see the location in this handout:
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/rer/20160118_Davenport_Public_Meeting_Handout_EN.pdf
Maps on Pages 5,8.

-Vic

Yeah, that's been mentioned prior, but I've looked at the literature, and there's more than enough space for the buildings to be on the north side of Bloor with expropriation, and as you state, platforms extending over the bridge (the existing piers are wide enough) each side of the tracks. It's either that or pedestrian bridges over Bloor, so they might as well make them platforms. It must be remembered that the line is to be electrified, and electric traction has little problem supplying enough effort to start straight into an incline.

To clarify my point on tunnels, mostly they are to attain access to Dundas West Station w/o dealing with the Crossways. And unless structural footings have been sunk right beside the running tubes, tunneling into/out of Dundas West station at the end of the platforms should be quite straightforward to avoid any issues with the building above. Most of the walkway between Bloor Station and Lansdowne Subway would be gallery type mall, hopefully with real light shining in even if it's below grade.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Without connections with Crossways, that'll mean the retail tenants will likely not want to renew their leases. If the retailers can get retail space that has access to GO/UPX/TTC, the Crossways will be getting vacate retail instead.

 

[TransitBart]

If they put in any moving sidewalk...

...in a couple of decades, they'll remove because it "cost to much" to maintain.

The accountants or penny-pinchers did that with the moving sidewalks between Line 1's Spadina station and Line 2's Spadina station.

It is shocking to see that. What a step backwards. I remember that movator from when I was a teenager.

 

[k10ery]

You missed the larger picture:
[Bloor-Davenport (Bloor St. near Lansdowne Ave.)
[...]
Subject to further analysis of corridor service implications and commitment by the City of Toronto to provide accessible, weather-protected, pedestrian connection to Lansdowne subway station]
pdf pg 15, http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pd...ail&utm_term=0_43955045ad-37d0c8e754-94526533

It's not a connection between Bloor and Davenport/Lansdowne GO stations, it's connections from each two subway/GO connections tied together in a mall, covered walkway shopfront PATH type promenade.

That's interesting, but why do you say it's about connecting both to Lansdowne and to Dundas West station? I could not see any mention of the Bloor-Dundas W connection in that Board report.

A 750m tunnel connecting Lansdowne TTC to Dundas W TTC seems huge, and the retail development you describe could make sense but I'm not sure Metrolinx should be trying to manage a project like that. At that point I'd almost say Lansdowne TTC should be rebuilt at Symington to serve the two GO stations!

And I know they want to avoid stations on a slope, but the original proposal seems so poorly thought out. Seriously, using Bloor-Davenport as the working station name makes me think they really did not look at a map!

 

[W. K. Lis]

Well, well, well. Downsview Park Station is now open. Downsview Park GO Station is now open. From link.

Meanwhile, we will have to wait for a connection between GO/UPX and the Dundas West Subway Station. The last official update I've seen was back in 2012. There have been some "updates", including a "possible" eastern entrance between the subway station and GO through The Crossways, but hasn't been shown in the Dundas West - Bloor Mobility Hub at this link.

 

[TransitBart]

Well, well, well. Downsview Park Station is now open. Downsview Park GO Station is now open. From link.

Meanwhile, we will have to wait for a connection between GO/UPX and the Dundas West Subway Station. The last official update I've seen was back in 2012. There have been some "updates", including a "possible" eastern entrance between the subway station and GO through The Crossways, but hasn't been shown in the Dundas West - Bloor Mobility Hub at this link.

Metrolinx has initiated an expropriation from the Crossways. @W. K. Lis - it ain't close to completion but it's closer to starting than in the past thirty years. The details are buried in a thread somewhere here.

Mods - perhaps it's time to start a thread on all the present and coming Inter-modal stations - it would be a lot of threads if each had its own.