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Dufferin Street: Eliminating the jog

Wouldn't that just move the bottleneck to Bathurst and St Clair? How would that help?

How about another solution. Just get rid of the Allen. The bottleneck at Eglinton would quickly be history.

That would just dump everyone who uses it now onto Dufferin. To coin a phrase, how would that help?
 
The solution is likely to turn it into something like University. A large grade level southbound boulevard with all the little cross streets tied back in again. Lots of lights to keep things slow with slightly higher capacity as the streets being fed (Eglinton, Lawrence, etc).

Northbound can be at the current grade (one level below the boulevard) treated as a highway (no pedestrians, etc.).

Since this brings both northbound and southbound lanes to the same land area, the subway is now on one side of the street and a 40m wide segment strip of land can be sold off by the city for new development adjacent to the subway in the new pedestrian friendly neighbourhood, much more pedestrian friendly anyway.
 
I don't doubt there'd be people who'd object to tearing down three or four buildings in Parkdale to alleviate the problems at Lansdowne/Queen/Jameson. But I'd like to think that most people could look at it, see there's a problem, measure the cost, and (perhaps regretfully) accept that it's one worth paying to solve the problem, and that people would adjust to the change rather than hurl themselves on the rocks of despair. Again, that's my take on it. There are other opinions, but I think this is a valid one.

Ah, but are these "most people" neighbourhood residents?

It also depends, of course, on what people frame as "the problem". Methinks that hereabouts, the solution has been bike lanes, lower speed limits and similar traffic-calming measures. Face it: as trafficked and critical as they are in their way, Lansdowne and Jameson are still not officially "major arterials" in the same way that Dufferin is; if anything, their status has been *downgraded* in recent years. And methinks it's the *motorists* that are being pressed into adjusting to the change rather than hurling themselves on the rocks of despair. As for the locals; well, they can live with the congestion. It's only a big bellyaching problem for 905-bound doofuses, anyway. If they don't like it, tough.

Sorry, Lone Primate, but your "take on it" is faulty.
 
I completely agree, adma. These streets just aren't that important. Even with the Gardiner exit (closed during rush hour), they don't see massive amounts of traffic, especially north of Queen. It's just not worth it to spend millions of dollars and demolish multiple businesses and heritage buildings just to save literally about 10 seconds for a few people's trips.
 
It wouldn't help traffic. But it wouldn't hurt, either, and then we wouldn't have a divided highway to nowhere in a trench running through a residential neighbourhood.

Hold on. You're suggesting taking eight lanes of traffic, four of them controlled and unsignalled, and dump all of them onto just four, that are signalled. And you blithely suggest this is a zero-sum game?

This is the kind of no-compromise attitude I was lamenting yesterday. You don't like the idea of an expressway that's already been in use for 40 years, not merely expanding, but simply existing, and you're willing to heap almost unimaginable inconvenience on the thousands who daily use either the Allen or Dufferin to get to their respective destinations just to spite the thing. For Christ's sake, stop and think about what you're saying.
 
Ah, but are these "most people" neighbourhood residents?

NIMBYism is the curse of this city, stem to stern. And I mean CITY. Not just the stuff south of Steeles. We have umpteen dozen pointless municipalities that aren't responsible to one another, poaching businesses, undercutting taxes, barely co-operating on transit. The people you're talking about aren't trees, rooted in the soil. They're living there now, at the moment. Tomorrow they might be elsewhere; I might be there tomorrow. Their neighbourhood IS my neighbourhood; my neighbourhood IS their neighbourhood. It's all one thing. We need to figure out what's in the best interests of the six million living in the GTA today, and the millions in the future, not just the few thousands proximate to whatever it is we're talking about at the moment. I don't think that's going to come about, but it's sure something I would wish for this city. ALL of it.

Face it: as trafficked and critical as they are in their way, Lansdowne and Jameson are still not officially "major arterials" in the same way that Dufferin is

I can't agree with this. Jameson is a tie to the Gardiner in a way Dufferin simply isn't. And if it can fairly be said that Lansdowne ends at St. Clair, then it should be pointed out that Dufferin itself doesn't go much further in a practical sense: it essentially ends at Wilson. North of Wilson, it's disconnected, and the same street in name only. It is effectively the feeder lanes of the Allen and the 401 in lieu of the extension of the expressway.


And methinks it's the *motorists* that are being pressed into adjusting to the change rather than hurling themselves on the rocks of despair.

That's at odds with the fact that smog alerts in this city started in the 1990s and have been growing more frequent. Obviously people have not been adjusting to things like pointless doglegs and a lack of high speed expressways by abandoning their cars, in spite of all the Jacobian 'logic' in the world. Darn that old human nature; they still prefer the utility and liberty of being able to go where they want, when they want that the automobile provides, and so they're jamming the few highways we do have and clogging the surface roads when space on them overflows. And yet, a hundred thousand people move to the GTA every year, buy a couple of cars, and set out making a living and going places to buy the things that keep the economy going. What's our response? Deal with the obvious and facilitate it? No, get philosophical and tell them they're "wrong" and there, that'll fix it.

You know what will end the smog alerts? It's not going to be people abandoning the personal automobile. It's going to be when automobiles are eventually emissions-free. That's it. Barring a nuclear war, I'm willing to forecast that if you come back in 2057, you're still going to see people on the roads, in their cars, going where they want or need to be. Millions of them more than now. Just they probably won't be burning gasoline anymore.

As for the locals; well, they can live with the congestion.

Well, unfortunately, that's the upshot of it. A case in point: if the Spadina had been built in 1970, the folks in Eglinton West Village wouldn't have all those cars poured onto their residential streets, and they wouldn't 'need' the speed bumps, or the stop signs every thirty yards. But it wasn't, so they do, and the problem only gets worse. NIMBYism in action.
 
It's just not worth it to spend millions of dollars and demolish multiple businesses and heritage buildings just to save literally about 10 seconds for a few people's trips.

Hold on, "heritage buildings"? What's next, 'sites of visitations of the Blessed Virgin'? Come on. Old they may be, but I don't think they're were Simcoe held his first parliament or the Strachan treated with the Americans. Let's keep things in perspective here.

It's a lot more than ten seconds. I used to use Lansdowne and Jameson to get home, so I have some idea of what's involved. Before that, I used to used Queen Street and the Queensway, so again, I've seen what it's like there at 5:15. It isn't "10 seconds". It's often more like three, four, five minutes. And it only backs up. Every day. Always. Now if you think fifty years of that hasn't cost the city and its residents more than the value of four-story buildings you could count on one hand, I'd have to beg to differ.
 
Ultimately, Lone Primate, if you're so fond of these back-to-the-future methods of addressing congestion, there's one more item that's essential: get rid of the Queen streetcar...
 
At this point, removing the Allen entirely would be a hell of a lot better than extending it. They really should have added a proper interchange at Eglinton to prevent traffic from backing up for kilometres just to turn left onto the highway, though...it'll never happen now.
 
Just because you don't happen to agree doesn't make the idea wicked, or foolish. The implication such things can only be accomplished by lies is damning of the integrity of a given project's champions, and an insult to the analytical abilities of those who could be convinced, yea or nay, on the matter.

I love how at the exact moment you declared that I was simply biased against the analytical abilities of those who propose highways, I was in another Canadian city doing data collection for the planning of an expressway with my Masters in Civil Engineering coworker whose specialization is Travel Demand Modelling. Oh, the irony!

Do you really think that 2 more lanes of traffic in or out of the city if built today wouldn't be congested the day it opened? You don't think that there would be calls for the next bottleneck to be "solved" or the next "missing link" to be constructed? It's a completely logical progression that "The reason we have such a traffic problem in Toronto is because we don't have an expressway linking to the northwest (Spadina)" would lead to "The reason we have such a traffic problem in Toronto is because we don't have an expressway linking to the northeast (Scarborough)".

And stating that Spadina wouldn't be an expressway to sprawl is foolish, anything that decreases travel times (including GO trains) encourages sprawl. If someone wants to live north of the city and work in the core they have to factor in travel times via local streets or around the 427/DVP. If you chop 10 minutes off a trip, that simply makes sprawl more attractive for another 10 minutes down the 400 (and at 100km/h, that's another 17km of sprawl!).
 
What this all boils down to is the fact that there have quite literally been no transportation improvements in the City of Toronto since the 1970s, period. No new streetcar lines. No real subway lines. No increase in highway capacity. No additions to the commuter rail system. The GTA can only remain competitive for so much longer without seriously improving it's outdated, built for a population of 2 million transportation system.
 
And then the people who move 17km further out will need schools and hospitals and stores, and the people who work at these new places will live an hour further away again, requiring more schools and stores, and so on.
 
What this all boils down to is the fact that there have quite literally been no transportation improvements in the City of Toronto since the 1970s, period. No new streetcar lines. No real subway lines. No increase in highway capacity. No additions to the commuter rail system. The GTA can only remain competitive for so much longer without seriously improving it's outdated, built for a population of 2 million transportation system.

Amen to that. It's really quite remarkable.
 
Dufferin Jog

To merge or to set apart?
Four opinions on how the Parkdale entrance should look--and what it should mean

National Post
February 23, 2008

MATT BLACKETT
publisher of Spacing magazine


First off, let me state that I don't mind the appearance and feel of the Queen and Gladstone intersection. It has slowly evolved over the years, taking on unique forms. That being said, there are some ideas I'd be happy to see.

With the eventual straightening of Dufferin on the west side of the bridge, Gladstone should become a side street much like Beaconsfield and Northcote to the east. I suspect Price Chopper, located just north of the Gladstone Hotel, will have something to say about that. Nonetheless, Gladstone Avenue should be narrowed on the east side: Create a boulevard with a row of lined trees or a native species garden. Grocery shoppers and Gladstone minglers would welcome a widened sidewalk.

I'm unsure what is planned on the south side lot, but a separated bikeway running along the side of the rail track fence would be good to have since Queen is often dangerous for cyclists, and connecting to King Street is often difficult in this part of town. Although I'm a member of the City of Toronto's Pedestrian Committee, I'm going to suggest a slight annexation of sidewalk space below the bridge to make room for clearly marked bike lanes. Bridge underpasses are inherently dangerous for cyclists and this one is no exception -- there's a lot of broken pavement on the roadsides and a number of sunken concrete bits around sewer grates. And since it's the bottom of a hill in both east-west directions, you experience this at a considerable speed.

Cement or steel bollards [short, rounded posts] should line the edge of the sidewalk. The amount of noise echoing under the bridge, in combination with rattle from the train tracks above, creates a slightly hostile environment for pedestrians. Bollards serve to "protect" pedestrians from vehicles and provide a mental barrier between themselves and the road. I'd also suggest a greater amount of lighting under the bridge. Pedestrians, cyclists and drivers would feel safer. Decorative light standards could be used instead of the garish spotlights used in the King Street underpass for the same tracks.

I love how the walls of the underpass have been used by numerous street artists and I'd like to continue to see them used in such a way. It speaks to the neighbourhood's connection to the arts and to urban culture. That being said, the metal barriers of the train track bridge offer up a unique space to create a "gateway" for Parkdale. I suggest having local graffiti collectives create a "Welcome to Parkdale" mural on those barriers (a "Welcome to Queen West" could greet eastbound traffic on the track's west-side barrier). The annual Style in Progress graffiti event that happens behind the Drake and Gladstone could include a new "Welcome" mural each year.

GRAHAM CASWELL
member of Active 18, a neighbourhood association of Ward 18 (where this intersection lies)


The idea of turning the intersection of Gladstone Avenue at Queen into a "gateway" to Parkdale is hard to reconcile with what is actually there. I think a better notion is one of continuance, something iconic and inviting that connects two neighbourhoods.

The intersection has the potential to be an active hub of the West Queen West triangle. The nucleus for this is already there: the Gladstone Hotel.

The two basic interventions at this intersection from which everything else could follow are to (a) create a context that gives the Gladstone focus and resonance -- its architectural, historic and now artistic cachet should inform the immediate vicinity -- and (b) create a vibrant continuation of Queen Street through the underpass by giving the train overpass a creative makeover.

The proposed buildings on the northwest corner should be set back from Queen so as to not obstruct the view of the Gladstone as you head east under the bridge. In fact, the three corners together should have the quality of a plaza that frames and lets the Gladstone be the building closest to the road and create the street wall.

The three corners around the Gladstone should have plantings and greenery that gives it a plaza feel. The southeast corner of the triangle is a preferred park location. The southern end of the park opposite the Gladstone should have a contemporary kick-ass lowto medium-rise building; it would be a signature of the new neighbourhood that gives a border to the park and provides a complementary urban vista when looking south from the Gladstone. The eastern border of the park should have lowto medium-rise buildings that provide a street wall north to Queen then eastward along Queen.

The sidewalk on the south side of Queen should be wide along the park side, with an established bike lane defined by tree plantings and low-angle lighting to wash the sidewalk and bike lane. I would dig out as much as possible on the south side of the underpass, widening the pedestrian path considerably to at least the width of the established sidewalk, and the bike lanes along the north side of park so they can continue uninterrupted from the park under the tracks to Parkdale. As well, the sidewalk under the bridge should be widened and illuminated so it feels safe at all times.

The train overpass could be clad with a new support structure that cradles the existing bridge. The walls along the tracks could be of laminated glass panels with translucent phantom images (moving blurred trains?).

These could be illuminated at night and incorporate light from oncoming traffic to creating a flickering mural overhead. This will give some profile to the bridge and create something that will attract the eye when approaching from either direction.

JAMES ALCOCK
urban planner and chair of Toronto Party's transportation committee, and Jose Gutierrez, an engineer


Our plan involves a massive overhaul of the intersection of Queen Street West and Gladstone Avenue to make it into a transportation and community hub.

We support the removal of the Dufferin jog, directly connecting Dufferin Street through Queen West. Gladstone would no longer be used for Dufferin Street traffic, and would become a purely local street.

We would remove the long and dark tunnel that Queen Street passes through to the east of where it connects to Dufferin Street and would level out Queen Street. This tunnel would be replaced with an open-air at-grade four-way intersection of Queen and Dufferin. The

southern end of Gladstone would be reintegrated into the local community by being narrowed down a little to become the size of a residential street.

The railway corridor that passes over the intersection would become a multi-modal transportation corridor passing over on a new beautiful modern double-decked cable-stayed bridge that lights up at night. This bridge would carry the railway lines on the bottom deck and a southerly extension of the Black Creek Drive expressway on the top deck. The southerly extension of Black Creek would connect to a rebuilt Gardiner Expressway on a cable-stayed viaduct and would carry express buses to Pearson Airport.

As the viaduct passes over the new Queen and Dufferin intersection, it would have a huge and beautifully designed sign with the words "Welcome to Parkdale" on the east side of it. The viaduct passing overhead would be lit up like a Christmas tree at night and would serve as a grand gate entrance to Parkdale. A slip ramp on to the northbound viaduct would be provided from Dufferin Street north of the new intersection with Queen.

A bicycle trail would run parallel to this cable-stayed bridge on the east side and would cross the new Queen-Dufferin intersection on the surface with safety traffic signals. The trail would intersect with bicycle lanes on Queen West.

We propose that an LRT on its own right-of-way be constructed along Queen Street in the centre of the road that would follow along the existing streetcar right-of-way in the middle of the Queensway and continue east along Queen Street, passing underground in the city core, utilizing the unused Queen subway station at Yonge and swinging north to the Bloor-Danforth subway at Pape or Greenwood, connecting to the proposed Don Mills LRT going further north. The new at-grade intersection at Dufferin would be shrouded in new trees on all four corners.

ERIK CUNNINGTON AND NATASHA SOMBORAC
intern architects who call Queen West home


Few neighbourhoods have a marker like the train bridge over Queen West, which marks the eastern edge of Parkdale, and tells you something about the community: the steel of the bridge speaks of the neighbourhood's industrial past, and its current state of neglect.

The Dufferin Jog Elimination project creates an ideal situation for reconsidering this intersection. The majority of Queen Street maintains a distinct character: three-to four-storey buildings with mixed uses on the ground floor including retail, restaurants and art galleries that add life to the street at all hours. Narrow storefronts allow for variety and provide a walkable scale. This pattern momentarily pauses at the corner of Gladstone and Queen.

Shoppers walking westward on Queen reach Gladstone Avenue and there is nothing to draw them further west into Parkdale. At present, it is quite the opposite.

A first step to a more inviting gateway is to continue the rhythm of Queen past Gladstone to the bridge. Breaking up the wall along the north side of Queen with two or three businesses and adding glass into the facade will create a connection to the street. Designing narrow storefronts and varying sized retail spaces could create a perfect location for local, independent shops or galleries.

Across the street, the now-vacant plot of land is ideal for the creation of a public green space. With the planned addition of several new condominiums in the Queen-West triangle, this neighbourhood will soon have thousands more residents with no backyard to call their own.

A now fenced-off opening in the south wall of the underpass at one time took people from street level up to the train platform. This could be re-opened and, with proper lighting, the passage would be a way of bringing people to the new park while maintaining a historical feature of the bridge.

If a new green space were created on the south side of Queen, this bridge would connect it to the green spaces on the north that are part of the Dufferin Jog Elimination project. The proposed stores and restaurants on the north side of Queen (as described earlier) could have terraces on the same level as the bicycle paths, adding vibrancy and security.

The structure of the pedestrian bridge itself should also be reconsidered. The large steel beams that make up the span and guard rail of the bridge tell something about the site's industrial past, but are too high, for a person standing on the bridge, to see the great views east on Queen. Sections of the steel structure of the pedestrian bridge could be opened up and replaced with glass railings. The more people can see and be seen, the safer the area will be. Part of the bridge deck could also be removed to allow more sunlight to reach pedestrians below.
 

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