adma
Superstar
Well, maybe it's because Queen/Lansdowne/Jameson's a vital (albeit seedy) enough commercial node that to take down a solid old commercial block is more hassle than it's worth.
May Jane Jacobs strike you with lightning, in other words.
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Well, maybe it's because Queen/Lansdowne/Jameson's a vital (albeit seedy) enough commercial node that to take down a solid old commercial block is more hassle than it's worth.
May Jane Jacobs strike you with lightning, in other words.
samsonyuen
Active Member
How did the Dufferin Jog come to being anyway?
ShonTron
Moderator
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Dufferin was not a very important north-south street, and the CN/CP line bisects its intersection with Queen. Ossington for a long time was the more important street, especially as between Dundas and Queen, it was the eastern terminus of Dundas Street.
The TTC never even bothered operating a streetcar service on Dufferin (unlike Ossington/Dovercourt) and a through bus route was not established until about 1960. Lansdowne had a through route (47 trolley bus) in 1947.
Keele has a much bigger jog for similar reasons - and Weston and Old Weston were established alternatives.
The TTC never even bothered operating a streetcar service on Dufferin (unlike Ossington/Dovercourt) and a through bus route was not established until about 1960. Lansdowne had a through route (47 trolley bus) in 1947.
Keele has a much bigger jog for similar reasons - and Weston and Old Weston were established alternatives.
adma
Superstar
Except south of Queen--and there, more as a loop/diversion or as a feeder for the CNE...
Lone Primate
Active Member
I'm not there all that often myself but I have an old friend who's a longtime resident of Parkdale, and he's particularly bothered by the new restrictions on pedestrians there. The short leg to Jameson really seems to try people's patience, and frankly, the pedestrians don't help much. As often as not, they'd cross against the light if only the backup in traffic favoured them, which only made matters worse if the light changed and people who would have been able to go, couldn't. It seems to me almost all of this could be solved if Queen met Jameson and Lansdowne as just one intersection, especially if the current end of Jameson were stopped up and left a blind alley as well.
Somehow, I'd always imagined it would mean tearing out all those buildings down the west side of Lansdowne, but MetroMan's suggestion is brilliant. It really looks like this could be solved by just the removal of three, maybe four buildings on the south side of Queen Street, and taking a corner of the school yard. It's hard to imagine solving a problem like this in a heavily urbanized setting getting any easier. I'm really amazed now that this hasn't been done yet. We're talking about tunneling for Dufferin for connections to Front Street and Lakeshore that may one day exist... but no one's doing anything about this connection that already does. I don't think the priorities are right on this one.
DENTROBATE54
Banned
Lansdowne/Jameson at Queen isn't that much of a jog. Oakwood@ St Clair is split literally into two roadways, ditto with St Clair @Wychwood. Additional lights at Jameson, elimination of onstreet parking and maybe sidewalk reduction on the east handside of Queen/Jameson could allot continuous travel through the intersection. Speaking of Jameson, the TTC could extend the 47 route southwards then eastwards via Springhurst to Dufferin Gates, creating another connection between Exhibition, south Parkdale and the subway.
Chuck
Senior Member
The elimination of jogs offers by far the most bang for the buck in terms of reduced congestion per area of land turned into road. Other notable jogs that have been eliminated include College at Yonge, basically all of Dundas, all east-west concession roads on the Scarborough-North York border, Elm at University, Gerrard at Parliament, Beverley/St George, Harbord/Hoskin, Richmond and Adelaide at Jarvis, College in Little Italy...
I say do it!
I say do it!
adma
Superstar
Ah, but *when* were those jogs eliminated? At least re the ones within the Former City of Toronto, it was long before she came to town
Under the circumstances, you might as well be advocating re-starting the Spadina...
Under the circumstances, you might as well be advocating re-starting the Spadina...
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Agreed. The Dufferin jog makes sense because it isn't causing any damage and it would help a major transit route. Traffic at Jameson/Landsdowne really isn't that bad, and you'd be destroying a lovely streetscape and several businesses, especially with the massive right-of-way that would be needed to meet current road department standards. Surely you could manipulate traffic lights in a way that facilitates through traffic without realigning the road.
Lone Primate
Active Member
I don't know; I think you're asking too much of the residents of Parkdale. Removing three or four buildings is an inconvenience, but really, only to a handful of people. But killing off on-street parking will get every storefront operator on Queen up in arms. And the pedestrians are already sore about the crossing restrictions... they wouldn't warm to losing any of the sidewalk to evil evil cars. I'm personally in favour of moving parking off thoroughfares and onto side streets, but I don't live there or run a business there. Though I feel differently, I could certainly understand such objections.
There are only four or five car lengths between Lansdowne and Jameson. Yet another signalled intersection is just an expensive non-solution to the problem, which is: it's two intersections that should be one. Imagine them as one, with four or five cars pretty much permanently stuck in the middle of it, and you'll see the problem. Lights won't solve it. Changing the configuration of how they all meet up will... or at least ameliorate it.
Lone Primate
Active Member
Yeah, MOST of what works about Toronto was accomplished before she came to town. Seems to me if she'd really had her way we'd all be taking nice, slow, leisurely trips across town, each of us employing an immigrant from some downtrodden country — at fair trade value, of course — to follow behind with broom and shovel.
BTW, I would like to advocate re-starting the Spadina.
Chuck
Senior Member
I agree 100%. Highway projects that support new sprawl take us in the wrong direction. These include the 404 extension, Bradford by-pass, or 427 extension. Other projects should be held off until transit infrastructure catches up. An example of that would be postponing any 400 widening until after GO service to Barrie starts up.
The Spadina Expressway is different because it fills in a massive, awful, gridlock causing gap in the transportation system that should have been fixed decades ago, and the subway provides competing transit access. You have tens of thousands of cars driving down the 400 and across the city, and they are just dumped onto city streets such as Weston, Black Creek, Bathurst, Avenue, Dufferin...all of this madness because there is no highway from downtown to the northwest part of the city.
In order to preserve adjacent neighbourhoods, the Allen should go underground from Eglinton and resurface downtown at the west end of Bremner Blvd.
adma
Superstar
Er, Lone Primate? Chuck? Prepare for the tar and feathering...
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Chuck, those billions would be far, far, far better spent on (1) burying the Gardiner, (2) burying the rail corridor, and (3) building more subway lines. It just doesn't make sense to build an underground highway costing billions that will be congested from day one just to save a few people in Downsview a few minutes of time.
Chuck
Senior Member
1) Disagree
2) Disagree
3) Agree
Like I said before, my support for new road projects is slim to nil. However, either the Spadina Expressway or a Black Creek extension to the Gardiner are both logical candidates for eliminating some of those god awful missing links in the GTA's highway network. Building new highways to sprawl land is one thing, completing the highway network is a whole other ballgame.