GenerationW
Senior Member
Two subways ending at Rouge Hill -- now that's a fantasy map!
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Downtown Rapid Transit Expansion Study
- Thread starter Ansem
- Start date
Paleo
Active Member
Person 1: DRL must have wide express stop spacing to save on travel time to give people incentive to transfer to it and use it!
Person 2: Let's give it a large meandering path that wastes travel time to connect as many dots on the map as possible!
The great thing about that map is that Exhibition Place gets 3 stops but outside of that, stop spacing seems closer outside of the core than in it, and the densest parts of Parkdale and Leslieville + their main commercial strips gets completely skipped over.
Person 2: Let's give it a large meandering path that wastes travel time to connect as many dots on the map as possible!
The great thing about that map is that Exhibition Place gets 3 stops but outside of that, stop spacing seems closer outside of the core than in it, and the densest parts of Parkdale and Leslieville + their main commercial strips gets completely skipped over.
kkgg7
Banned
It will be nice if another line runs from Coxwell/Queen to Roncesvalles so that the streetcars on King/Queen can be eliminate. The current mixed traffic simply doesn't work.
The Queen line was planned 100 years ago and was brought on the table serveral times yet never realized.
The Queen line was planned 100 years ago and was brought on the table serveral times yet never realized.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Paleo:
Don't think DRL needs to have wide express stop spacing (though you don't necessarily want them too close close together either) - the incentive to use it will be in the way of intercepting riders before they hit the YUS from feeder lines. And the meander in the map have lots to do with constructability and/or node issues anyways.
AoD
Don't think DRL needs to have wide express stop spacing (though you don't necessarily want them too close close together either) - the incentive to use it will be in the way of intercepting riders before they hit the YUS from feeder lines. And the meander in the map have lots to do with constructability and/or node issues anyways.
AoD
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dunkalunk
Senior Member
What is the utility of having a rapid transit line with close enough spacing to replace a streetcar? I see the ideal stop spacing being closer to 1000-1500m than the 500-800m on the Bloor-Danforth.
I would say that surface transit frequency on the King or Queen Streetcars could be reduced especially with the newer low-floor LRVs, but the lines are far too valuable to be ripped up.
andrewpmk
Senior Member
I can't imagine that many people will want to take the streetcar if a DLR is built under King or Queen. The streetcars are ridiculously slow and get stuck in traffic jams all the time, I hate using Toronto streetcar service and much prefer taking the bus up to the Bloor line and the subway across if at all possible, or walking. Hell, driving on Gardiner/Lakeshore/DVP is usually much faster than taking the streetcars even in rush hour traffic jams. My guess is that what will happen if a DLR is built say under Queen St, is that the portion of the Queen streetcar that runs along the subway route will be removed, parallel routes like King and Dundas will remain but ridership will go down by 50%. Maybe a bus will remain like route #97, or #85 west of Don Mills, but it will be infrequent. It is just too expensive to have duplicate streetcar & subway services and no one will want to use the streetcar once the subway is built.
nfitz
Superstar
And yet every day I see people who get off the Danforth subway at Broadview and take the 504 downtown to King rather than change to the Yonge subway.
Tulse
Senior Member
I love the King car run from Broadview station. I live in the area, and will often take the King or Dundas car into downtown rather than take the BD subway to change at Yonge. The streetcar may not be as fast, but I find it a far more interesting and relaxing ride, with a great view of the city.
rbt
Senior Member
I would be one of those. Almost always take surface transit when it is an option (time wise) over underground.
dunkalunk
Senior Member
What I was getting at was if stop spacing was in the neighbourhood of 1-2 km you will still need local transit service, much in the same way that both Yonge and Sheppard lines have local bus routes. If a streetcar service already exists and you are tunnelling, then what is the point of ripping up the track and replacing it with a bus? you won't be able to just cut local streetcar service, especially where densities are much higher than suburban rapid transit routes.
You could probably reduce frequencies to 15 minutes, but the service will still need to be provided.
Paleo
Active Member
All of our subway lines had 500-800m stop spacing before we started building them into the suburbs in the 1970s. Are you saying the original segments of the Yonge, University, and Bloor-Danforth subways had no utility? It seems to have worked quite well.
dunkalunk
Senior Member
They have utility, but to operate most effectively as a relief line, the stop spacing on the DRL will need to be wider than what is considered the norm in Downtown Toronto. I don't like the idea of directly replacing streetcars with subways, as there is an additional cost to building additional stations to replace the streetcar service, and the additional parallel transit capacity will be needed if the cost of energy doubles or especially if the GTA is expected to grow by 3 million people by 2035.
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kkgg7
Banned
The Queen line, if ever built, will NOT be a relief line.
In the central section (Parliament to Dufferin for example), the spacing can be limited to 500-800 meters. I am sure the vast majority will prefer take the subway over the snail speed streetcars whose schedule is completely unpredictable. Outside the core area, 1000 meter is appropriate. Most suburban riders will still prefer taking it and then walk for 5-6 minutes than be stuck in the streetcar for 20 or 30 minutes more but arriving at the doorstep.
If the subway gets built, surface transit should be removed. Not to mention the streetcar stops are 2 or 3 times more frequent than they should be. Won't kill to walk 300 meter, will it? I would even suggest prohibit cars from running on Queen and King (central part) completely, when Richmond and Adelaide are just close by. Our streets will be so much nicer!
andrewpmk
Senior Member
I don't think that the DRL needs to be faster than the Yonge subway or Bloor subway to get people to use it. A likely route for the DRL would be to run east on Queen starting at Queen/Roncesvalles, along Queen to Carlaw Avenue, and then up Pape, Overlea and Don Mills to Eglinton, with a possible phase 2 extension to Finch/Don Mills. Stops would be every 500-800m along Queen, about every 1km on the north-south stretch to Eglinton, and every 1-2km along Don Mills from Eglinton to Finch. The Don Mills portion will suck up a huge amount of traffic going from the northeastern suburbs to downtown that currently uses the Yonge line and will be about the same speed as the Yonge line, while the Queen section will be more of a local service line. Long distance traffic through downtown will use GO (likely stops: Roncesvalles, Exhibition, Union, Pape/Gerrard, Danforth along the Lakeshore line; Dundas West, Queen/Dufferin, Union along the Milton/Georgetown lines).
Closing King and Queen to cars will never happen. Traffic jams around here are bad enough as they are so closing any roads to cars is ****ing ridiculous. There will always be some people who have to drive for whatever reason. Part of the reason for getting rid of the Queen streetcar after opening the subway is that since no one will want to use the streetcar anymore, this will allow a small increase in capacity for car drivers.
Tulse
Senior Member
A relief line is not the same as an express line. The problem with the current system is capacity, not speed. People will happily take a less crowded line, even if it isn't faster than the route they currently take.