Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[OneCity]

Only in Toronto would evidence-based come with sarcastic quotation marks.

Pitting one bad line concept against another and calling it "evidence-based" is sad. Moreso after the first bad plan was already rejected, and proven not to be the best choice in a comparison report. The issues were straight forward to begin with, report or not.

Unfortunately some media and their usual council friends have chosen to play hardball politics against an overwhelming democratic call to do better. So much time wasted promoting and old political plan as "evidenced based" instead of working toward a solution. Hard to take them seriously or feel bad for thier cause even with the Tory-Keesmat butchering of the SSE. The overall Tory plan is still good which makes it able to move forward.

We seem to now have a race to see what is the worst solution to connect Scarborough Centre. Transfers LRT vs. single stop subway Is exactly that. Subway with stops on any corridor or Crosstown LRT to SCC would have surely made the most sense to the better part of 600k plus people who actually live in the vicinity and their is evidence which supports it.

Misleading the public is not just a Toronto issue

 

[Rainforest]

Only in Toronto would evidence-based come with sarcastic quotation marks.

If so, then perhaps we are in the lead. "Evidence-based" is, at times, detached from the groups of residents who really have a stake in the project.

 

[pman]

If so, then perhaps we are in the lead. "Evidence-based" is, at times, detached from the groups of residents who really have a stake in the project.

Given the enormous and likely under-estimated forecast cost of SSE, and our finite capacity to fund new infrastructure, all Toronto residents have a legitimate stake and voice in this project.

 

[syn]

Given the enormous and likely under-estimated forecast cost of SSE, and our finite capacity to fund new infrastructure, all Toronto residents have a legitimate stake and voice in this project.

It's strange - we're told Scarborough 'deserves' this because they're part of Toronto and deserve to be connected to the core. However, evidence-based opinions that don't suit SSE supporters are rejected with the assumption that it's coming from residents who 'don't have a stake', which I can only assume means, at least in part, 'don't live there.'

Interestingly, a minority of Scarborough residents have a 'stake' in this project; nearly 50% of transit trips that start in Scarborough end in Scarborough, and 77% of all transit trips that begin in Scarborough aren't going downtown. This is ignoring all the RT users between Kennedy and STC (along with McCowan) getting screwed over when their stations are eliminated.

You're right - all Torontonians have a legitimate stake in this project.

 

[jcam]

I prefer 'Decision-based fact making'.

 

[pman]

I prefer 'Decision-based fact making'.

Hey, you should run for Mayor!

 

[OneCity]

Hey, you should run for Mayor!

Or Ward 22 councillor and then you can even pretend to be Mayor without risking your riding seat

 

[Rainforest]

Given the enormous and likely under-estimated forecast cost of SSE, and our finite capacity to fund new infrastructure, all Toronto residents have a legitimate stake and voice in this project.

Definitely. That's why all SSE votes, as well as all other transit related votes, go before the full Council. Not just councilors from the area.

 

[M II A II R II K]

It would be more worthwhile if the Kennedy GO transfer were a viable enough option to use anytime particularly during rush hour to avoid long distance commuters to suffer through the Danforth and a Bloor/Yonge bottleneck, particularly after a hellacious long bus ride to get to the SSE extension in the first place.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I know this is more of a general sentiment, but the main problem with the LRT plan is not that it's inferior transit, but it's the fact that it has way too many stops to be viable for people going downtown, or even for people getting around Scarborough. Scarborough is huge and you're never going to remove the bus from the equation without having an LRT on every road that stops at every intersection (the equivalent of streetcars in downtown Toronto).

This graph shows a station's daily ridership in 2015 to the number of surface vehicles that serve the station (Yes, I painstakingly counted every single bus that serves a subway station per weekday). The R^2 value is low but it includes all transfer and terminus stations. If we remove these (Bloor-Yonge, St George, Sheppard Yonge, Kennedy, Finch, Don Mills, Sheppard West, Kipling, Union (GO Transit), North York Centre (GO Bus), Islington (MiWay), and a few others), this is what we get:

With an R^2 value of 0.60, there is a strong correlation. And it's not done yet. If we isolate urban and suburban stations, we get:

The correlation is so much smaller in urban areas than it is in suburban areas. The R^2 value is about 0.75! This proves that building extra stops in Scarborough is not going to do anything to help with transit ridership to and from the STC, especially at when going from other areas of Toronto. Yes, I agree that the Eglinton East LRT should be built, and should have stops ~ every 800 m. (Cut out a few redundant stops), because there are areas of Scarborough that should be intensified. However, like it or not, people will still have to take the bus to get to most LRT stations, especially along the existing RT corridor. The population densities are too sparse to serve anyone with the LRT plan, and no one is going to want to bus to the LRT, ride it with more stops, then transfer at Kennedy to the subway, then transfer in downtown to a streetcar. That is nuts. The ideal solution is an elevated line 2 along McCowan or the existing RT corridor with stops only at Lawrence and the STC. This way you don't spend excessive amounts tunnelling, transfers between buses and subways aren't insanely difficult, transfers are barrier-free, transfers are quick, there is no need to transfer at Kennedy, and capacity is there for the future.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Then what is needed is ICTS/Skytrain done right. A line that stretches for long distances, is upgradeable, and no pointless linear transfers that also happen to be a pain in the ass as well.

 

[WislaHD]

It should be noted though that ridership is not the only dimension for building transit.

Coverage and accessibility are important too.

My ideal solution is grade-separating Eglinton in Scarborough and interlining the Scarborough LRT with Eglinton.

 

[11th]

It should be noted though that ridership is not the only dimension for building transit.

Coverage and accessibility are important too.

My ideal solution is grade-separating Eglinton in Scarborough and interlining the Scarborough LRT with Eglinton.

Then the line can use high-floor vehicles instead, as it should be for a truck route, line 3 becomes a light metro/subway, and Scarborough will no longer complain about not having a "subway" to SCC.

 

[BurlOak]

The ideal solution is an elevated line 2 along McCowan or the existing RT corridor with stops only at Lawrence and the STC. This way you don't spend excessive amounts tunnelling, transfers between buses and subways aren't insanely difficult, transfers are barrier-free, transfers are quick, there is no need to transfer at Kennedy, and capacity is there for the future.

Then what is needed is ICTS/Skytrain done right. A line that stretches for long distances, is upgradeable, and no pointless linear transfers that also happen to be a pain in the ass as well.

My ideal solution is grade-separating Eglinton in Scarborough and interlining the Scarborough LRT with Eglinton.

The ideal solution WAS grade-separating Eglinton in Scarborough and interlining the Scarborough LRT with Eglinton.

There has been much discussion on why it is very difficult to elevate the B-D line (mostly it takes 750m ot 1000m to switch a subway from underground to elevated, and all cross streets, entrances, etc. are blocked for this length).

The compromise to all of the above is a mostly elevated ICTS/SkyTrain line going from STC with no transfers all the way downtown. (yes - I found an opportunity to raise this again)

 

[M II A II R II K]

That blue route could be a subway with elevated sections, places like Vancouver could have those go downtown but Toronto needs higher capacity transit to go into its dense areas.

Long range skytrain systems here could go from one suburb to another and could serve as a niche that’s in between full blown subway service and on street LRT, even in its own lane.