Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[amnesiajune]

How did this thread get to 95 pages?

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

syn, OneCity and TheTigerMaster keep going on and on....

Shut the thread down!!

 

[Rainforest]

Sorry. I meant to say I’ve never seen anyone here make the claim EELRT funding wasn’t spun off of SSE funds.

Understood. Well, nobody is explicitly denying that fact.

However, a certain anti-SSE troll gets very agitated and accuses me of trolling, when I merely state the well-established fact that EE LRT funding originated from the SSE project.

Clearly, the said troll is trying to use the denial-by-omission tactics.

 

[syn]

Understood. Well, nobody is explicitly denying that fact.

However, a certain anti-SSE troll gets very agitated and accuses me of trolling, when I merely state the well-established fact that EE LRT funding originated from the SSE project.

Clearly, the said troll is trying to use the denial-by-omission tactics.

Which is completely irrelevant. SSE funding came largely from the LRT project before that. So what? You might as well tell us what you had for dinner last night as that's just as relevant as the 'fact' you posted.

The fact is the plan established in January 2016 was to build the Crosstown East LRT extension and a one stop SSE for $3.56 billion. The SSE is now nearly $4 billion alone, leaving no money for the Crosstown East Extension.

The SSE has nearly doubled in price since the single stop solution was announced, and costs are virtually guaranteed to rise.

For those of us who don't like seeing our tax dollars wasted on a completely unnecessary infrastructure project, this is a very big problem. I hope one day you understand.

Josh Matlow‏Verified account@JoshMatlow Dec 1

Next week at council, I’ll be asking my colleagues to support a Value for Money assessment (which has never been done) of the approved Scarborough 7-stop LRT & the proposed 1-stop subway before $billions of dollars are spent. Please ask the mayor & council to be guided by facts.

 

[Rainforest]

Which is completely irrelevant. SSE funding came largely from the LRT project before that. So what? You might as well tell us what you had for dinner last night as that's just as relevant as the 'fact' you posted.

Your dinner is not relevant. The origin of the funds is very relevant.

If you believe it is irrelevant, that doesn't actually make it any less relevant.

The fact is the plan established in January 2016 was to build the Crosstown East LRT extension and a one stop SSE for $3.56 billion. The SSE is now nearly $4 billion alone, leaving no money for the Crosstown East Extension.

The SSE has nearly doubled in price since the single stop solution was announced, and costs are virtually guaranteed to rise.

For those of us who don't like seeing our tax dollars wasted on a completely unnecessary infrastructure project, this is a very big problem. I hope one day you understand.

Building SSE is a very important step to move on with transit in this city. Backing off at this point would trigger very undesirable domino effects.

I hope one day you understand.

 

[syn]

Please do tell:

a) How the origin of the funds are relevant to the fact I originally posted regarding the SSEs ballooining cost
b) What the domino effects would be of changing the Scarborough transit plans

 

[Rainforest]

A) I don't want occasional readers of this page to be misled into thinking that EE LRT originally had its own dedicated funding, which was later redirected to SSE.

B) Scarborough voting en masse against any substantial transit spending in the city. "Since you killed our subway, we will try to kill your subways and your light rail lines as well."

That line of thinking and voting would hurt all areas of the city, including Scarborough itself. And yet, that idea would become a very real driving force for many voters in Scarborough.

 

[syn]

A) I don't want occasional readers of this page to be misled into thinking that EE LRT originally had its own dedicated funding, which was later redirected to SSE.

Why would that matter? The funding was for the Crosstown East Extension and a one-stop subway extension, instead of a 3 stop solution which was simply too expensive. If they go ahead with the SSE and not the Crosstown East due to cost escalations, then it will have been canceled to pay for the SSE.

What they decided to fund first isn't relevant. This funding has been re-purposed several times already.

B) Scarborough voting en masse against any substantial transit spending in the city. "If you killed our subway, we will try to kill your subways and your light rail lines as well."

That line of thinking and voting would hurt all areas of the city, including Scarborough itself. And yet, that idea would become a very real driving force for many voters from Scarborough.

If this is what we can expect from Scarborough, then it would be best if they were their own city in charge of their own decisions - kind of like Mississauga in the west.

 

[Rainforest]

Why would that matter? The funding was for the Crosstown East Extension and a one-stop subway extension, instead of a 3 stop solution which was simply too expensive. If they go ahead with the SSE and not the Crosstown East due to cost escalations, then it will have been canceled to pay for the SSE.

What they decided to fund first isn't relevant.

You are free to believe it's not relevant. In my opinion, it is very relevant.

It means EE LRT is left exactly in the same state (not funded) as it was before the SSE project started. If the SSE project never started, EE LRT would still remain unfunded to this day.

If this is what we can expect from Scarborough, then it would be best if they were their own city in charge of their own decisions - kind of like Mississauga in the west.

Possibly; although the most reasonable new municipal border would be along Kennedy Avenue, rather than the old border of Scarborough. The north-western section of Scarborough functionally belongs in North York.

Anyway, that's not in your control and not in my control. The provincial government sets the municipal borders in this province, and I doubt they are interested to re-settle them now.

If so, we have to operate under the existing conditions. For me, this is a good enough reason to be more supportive of a subway deep into Scarborough, than of a subway into Mississauga or Richmond Hill.

 

[TOareaFan]

 

[syn]

You are free to believe it's not relevant. In my opinion, it is very relevant.

It means EE LRT is left exactly in the same state (not funded) as it was before the SSE project started. If the SSE project never started, EE LRT would still remain unfunded to this day.

There is absolutely no way to know that. The previous plan which included a version of the Crosstown East (the Malvern LRT) was canceled by Rob Ford.

That's essentially what the Crosstown East extension is - the Malvern LRT renamed.

If he hadn't engaged in identity politics, we could have one new line already under construction in Scarborough, with another (the Malvern LRT) shortly on the way. 'The Crosstown East' actually predates the SSE by years.

You could also argue that if it wasn't for Transit City, the SSE would have remained unfunded to this day.

This too, would be irrelevant.

The complete lack of funding for the Crosstown LRT, which was completely funded when revived (along with a one stop SSE), should be a colossal red flag to anyone who actually cares about great transit in Scarborough.

Possibly; although the most reasonable new municipal border would be along Kennedy Avenue, rather than the old border of Scarborough. The north-western section of Scarborough functionally belongs in North York.

Anyway, that's not in your control and not in my control. The provincial government sets the municipal borders in this province, and I doubt they are interested to re-settle them now.

If so, we have to operate under the existing conditions. For me, this is a good enough reason to be more supportive of a subway deep into Scarborough, than of a subway into Mississauga or Richmond Hill.

As you stated:

"Scarborough voting en masse against any substantial transit spending in the city. "If you killed our subway, we will try to kill your subways and your light rail lines as well."

The mindset you are basing this position on isn't rational. The rationale for this extension is based on identity politics and entitlement- not sound transit planning. This being the case, the SSE will never be enough. Then there will be expectations of more transit, and questions as to why they don't deserve more stations like 'downtown'.

This is already happening.

Dropping $4 billion + on a one stop extension and then expecting calls for more transit investment in Scarborough to end (for the time being) in favour of expansion elsewhere isn't realistic.

I also think proceeding with this kind of project is dangerous as it will have residents in other parts of the city demanding a subway 'because they deserve one'. It's far too easy a political wedge issue to exploit.

We should stick to building infrastucture based on expert planning and actual need.

 

[syn]

There's actually a great LRT map for comparison in the article posted above (https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...-scarborough-subway-good-value-for-money.html):

 

[Voltz]

There is absolutely no way to know that. The previous plan which included a version of the Crosstown East (the Malvern LRT) was canceled by Rob Ford.

That's essentially what the Crosstown East extension is - the Malvern LRT renamed.

If he hadn't engaged in identity politics, we could have one new line already under construction in Scarborough, with another (the Malvern LRT) shortly on the way. 'The Crosstown East' actually predates the SSE by years.

You could also argue that if it wasn't for Transit City, the SSE would have remained unfunded to this day.

This too, would be irrelevant.

The complete lack of funding for the Crosstown LRT, which was completely funded when revived (along with a one stop SSE), should be a colossal red flag to anyone who actually cares about great transit in Scarborough.




As you stated:

"Scarborough voting en masse against any substantial transit spending in the city. "If you killed our subway, we will try to kill your subways and your light rail lines as well."

The mindset you are basing this position on isn't rational. The rationale for this extension is based on identity politics and entitlement- not sound transit planning. This being the case, the SSE will never be enough. Then there will be expectations of more transit, and questions as to why they don't deserve more stations like 'downtown'.

This is already happening.

Dropping $4 billion + on a one stop extension and then expecting calls for more transit investment in Scarborough to end (for the time being) in favour of expansion elsewhere isn't realistic.

I also think proceeding with this kind of project is dangerous as it will have residents in other parts of the city demanding a subway 'because they deserve one'. It's far too easy a political wedge issue to exploit.

We should stick to building infrastucture based on expert planning and actual need.

As well, the SSE putting the EELRT at risk may be debatable, but it definitely did cause the cancellation of SLRT, with it's extension further into Scarborough, and the politics that lead to the SSE most certainly lead to the cancellation of the Sheppard LRT, and may lead to Billions more being wasted on the Sheppard Subway.

We are definitly not better off with this $4 Billion subway stop than we would have been.

 

[OneCity]

View attachment 129390

Which poster here is in the costume? Or worse the great parent who uses their kid for political special interest photo ops? Lol.

We are definitly not better off with this $4 Billion subway stop than we would have been.

We would be better off if the City worked address the problem that existed. The transfer LRT was rejected then studied soon after to be a poor choice. At that point we should have improved. What happened?

Its great the people complaining feel empowered with the flaws in the current line but they failed to respect the majority vote to do so better and failed to follow the expert report which clearly stated the transfer line was not optimal. So this whole charade of "value-for-money" will be a conplete waste of time as there is no value in comparing a line that was already reject and proven to be a poor choice.

 

[Rainforest]

There is absolutely no way to know that.

With a high probability, EE LRT still would not be funded. Light rail is not as popular as subways in this city; like it or not. The council would keep nodding at Queen's Park to fund the remaining light rail lines, but would not go as far as introducing a dedicated tax levy for that line.

The previous plan which included a version of the Crosstown East (the Malvern LRT) was canceled by Rob Ford.

That's essentially what the Crosstown East extension is - the Malvern LRT renamed.

If he hadn't engaged in identity politics, we could have one new line already under construction in Scarborough, with another (the Malvern LRT) shortly on the way.

That line had no funding when Rob Ford was elected, thus him "cancelling" it was irrelevant. Two years later, the Council restored lines that were funded, including Eglinton (central) and Finch. It couldn't "restore" Eglinton East because it was never funded in the first place.

'The Crosstown East' actually predates the SSE by years.

That's not correct; the subway extension was considered many years before any of the Transit City lines.

You could also argue that if it wasn't for Transit City, the SSE would have remained unfunded to this day.

This too, would be irrelevant.

It may well be true that Transit City was one of the contributing factors that pushed SSE ahead.

I'll leave it up to you to decide if it is relevant or not. Doesn't affect my points either way.

The complete lack of funding for the Crosstown LRT, which was completely funded when revived (along with a one stop SSE), should be a colossal red flag to anyone who actually cares about great transit in Scarborough.

I see a much bigger red flag in the attempts to kill SSE.

As you stated:

"Scarborough voting en masse against any substantial transit spending in the city. "If you killed our subway, we will try to kill your subways and your light rail lines as well."

The mindset you are basing this position on isn't rational. The rationale for this extension is based on identity politics and entitlement- not sound transit planning. This being the case, the SSE will never be enough. Then there will be expectations of more transit, and questions as to why they don't deserve more stations like 'downtown'.

This is already happening.

Dropping $4 billion + on a one stop extension and then expecting calls for more transit investment in Scarborough to end (for the time being) in favour of expansion elsewhere isn't realistic.

We should stick to building infrastructure based on expert planning and actual need.

You can sit on your high horse and head for the doom. I prefer a more realistic and somewhat flexible approach, that gets the things done much more often.

I also think proceeding with this kind of project is dangerous as it will have residents in other parts of the city demanding a subway 'because they deserve one'. It's far too easy a political wedge issue to exploit.

I accept this argument, but only with respect to the 2-nd subway line into Scarborough. If SSE is build, I will not be much into extending the Sheppard East subway as well. That would trigger subway demands from other parts of the city.

Just one subway line deep into Scarborough is reasonable, given that Scarborough's transit situation is currently worse than any other area's. Etobicoke has the west end of BD subway, and its norther part will be close to the new TYSSE stations. North York has lots of subway coverage.