Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[OneCity]

Which gets at my main point.

Scarborough wants tunneled for the sake of tunneling.

I don't believe residents are opposed to an intelligent design with would show savings, improved connectivity and atleast the effort to improve the corridor from the current RT.

There have been no alternatives provided for "Scarborough to vote" on. Its been elevated transfer LRT vs. LRT Tunnel vs McCowan subway tunnel. The Glen Murray elevated was a solid compromise but came in the middle of the Stintz, GlennD push for McCowan after the Ford-McGuinty LRT tunnel was rejected, even though its was shown to have greater value than the Transit City line.

 

[OneCity]

I guess that's why the STC area is the least developed area along the SRT route. - nobody liked the elevated transit.

The elevated portion around SCC was the only part I liked about the line. For the line as a whole connectivity, route, reliability, maintenance, visibility of intermediate stops was all very poor. Really a poorly implemented transit "investment".

Not sure what you mean be least developed alonf SRT route. Midland and Ellesmere stops are in the middle of an industrial abyss for the most part, Lawrence is going to see some development proposed nearby shortly but is a good hike away from the corner of Midland and is not even signed, McCowan and SCC actually have done well. The route was poor

 

[Leo_Chan]

There have been no alternatives provided for "Scarborough to vote" on.

Does the City of Toronto have any laws in place that allow for voting on a specific matter separate from an election? An accurate way to get public input without biased, inaccurate, and extremely voluntary polls and not an “avoid Ford” scenario.

 

[OneCity]

Does the City of Toronto have any laws in place that allow for voting on a specific matter separate from an election? An accurate way to get public input without biased, inaccurate, and extremely voluntary polls and not an “avoid Ford” scenario.

Not sure. Pickering recently put the Casino on there election ballot as a separate item. But what options would you put on?

There are many variables and plans at play here to have a simple question. The Transit City LRT line to SCC was already proven to be not best choice compared to others like the tunneled LRT. Do we put the other options back in play? Would that render the Eglinton East EA currently in design useless once we make further changes? How much does going back, causing delays help anything really?

The McCowan corridor is a bad choice for a lone stop, but going back to anything else will have costs impact as well, even the RT corridor was shown to be close to $3B (without delays)not including the long shutdown of the RT. The overall plan of LRT and subway is still very good and as long as we push ahead without major delays itll be the best outcome for everyone in this City at this stage.

Really the best scenario is the Province taking the subway away from the City, and ensuring we can move forward on all other projects in the most timely manner. In the end avoiding delays will save big $ and ensure we are actually building.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Not sure. Pickering recently put the Casino on there election ballot as a spate item. But what options would you put on?

Because there are many variables and plans at play here to have a simple question. The Transit City LRT line to SCC was already proven to be not best choice compared to others like the tunneled LRT. Do we put the other options back in play? Would that render the Eglinton East EA currently going on usless if we make further changes? How much does going back help anything?

The McCowan corridor is a bad choice for a lone stop, but going back to anything else will have costs impact as well, even the RT corridor was shown to be close to $3B (without delays)not including the long shutdown of the RT. The overall plan of LRT and subway is still very good and as long as we push ahead without major delays itll be the best outcome for everyone in this City at this stage.

Really the best scenario is the Province taking the subway away from the City, and ensuring we can move forward on all other projects in the most timely manner. In the end avoiding delays will save big$ and ensure we are actually building.

Just have a yes or no question for the current 1 stop tunneled McCowan plan. It should be a simple matter of agree or disagree. Literally anything other than the current plan works better, even if it’s more expensive but the cost to benefit may be better.

 

[OneCity]

Just have a yes or no question for the current 1 stop tunneled McCowan plan. It should be a simple matter of agree or disagree. Literally anything other than the current plan works better, even if it’s more expensive but the cost to benefit may be better.

All the question would do is re-start the debate from the bottom again. Its really not that simple, the City still remains polarized after. The majority of people in Scarborough want a proper integrated subway with stops, majority of Downtown want the Miller transfer plan before SCC as they are told its "evidence based" or the cheapest option available. There is no simple happy outcome here, which is why even I be-grudgingly support the one stop in all its inefficiencies as a far better alternative to going back, and a great piece of a larger plan.

The fact people are saying there are savings to be found going back is not true, we could debate for another 50 years and watch costs escalate further and prevents other projects from moving forward. There already have already been compromises offered, lets just move on before this nonsense seeps into other projects. The costs of delays on Mega projects are understated and in the bigger picture this cost of properly integrating Scarborough Centre to what exists is really not as insane as its been made out. My hope is the Province takes it over and adds the hospital stop. We need to move on either way.

 

[Leo_Chan]

All the question would do is re-start the debate from the bottom again. Its really not that simple, the City still remains polarized after. The majority of people in Scarborough want a proper subway with stops, majority of Downtown want the Miller transfer plan before SCC as they are told its "evidence based". There is no simple happy outcome here, which is why even I be-grudgingly support the one stop in all its inefficiencies as a far better alternative to going back, and a great piece of a larger plan.

The fact people are saying there are savings to be found going back is not true. There already have already been compromises offered, lets just move on before this seeps into other projects. The costs of delays on Mega projects are understated and in the bigger picture this cost of properly integrating Scarborough Centre to what exists is really not as scary as its been made out. My hope is the Province takes it over and adds the hospital stop. We need to move on either way.

Okay, then maybe for other transit projects or large projects in general. Are there any examples of projects that could have decisions made in this matter from the public rather than platforms for elections that can have benefits?

 

[syn]

It spawned it, as that was the only way the one-stop plan would get approval. Then it immediately ate up those funds. What syn said was not incorrect.

There’s not a UT member that doenst know that. Some would rather play dumb pendantic
games, to act as if the SSE cost overruns didn’t consume the EELRT funds.

It's a little unbelievable that in 2017 we have people denying that the Eglinton East LRT extension was part of a council approved plan (including a one stop subway), to be funded with the $3.56 billion allocated for Scarborough transit expansion. It's also alarming that it's not understood by an SSE advocate that the cost of the 1 stop solution has ballooned to the point that the funding allocated in that plan for the Crosstown East is no longer available.

What this latest round of mental gymnastics has demonstrated, yet again, is that this isn't about transit planning at all. It's fanaticism. SSE fanatics will ignore reality in almost every respect, as long as governments spend billions to fund an indefensible extension.

I hope once the next cost increase is announced in 2019 (hopefully much sooner) reality wins out and they can finally develop a transit plan that makes sense for Scarborough.

 

[OneCity]

What this latest round of mental gymnastics has demonstrated, yet again, is that this isn't about transit planning at all. It's fanaticism. SSE fanatics will ignore reality in almost every respect, as long as governments spend billions to fund an indefensible extension.

I hope once the next cost increase is announced in 2019 (hopefully much sooner) reality wins out and they can finally develop a transit plan that makes sense for Scarborough.

Of course you do. "Transfer fanatics" will always ignore what technology exists to connect into and the economical and political costs of changing plans without the full support of the people who live in the area most effected. Therefore they will never understand the politics that are going on to stick handle around them. Cant wait till 2019 so the door can slam shut and we move on.

Reality wins? Reality already won, and I think youre in denial. Realities names were Rob Ford, John Tory(Doug Ford), Kathleen Wynne, Patrick Brown, and 99% of Scarborough elected representatives. Basically all the representatives that really matter here. The amount of false hope and misinformation to try to prevent this line for Downtown politicians has scewed reality. It could have been done cheaper, but reality is the transfer line(s) were rejected and there was not even a remote possibility it was ever coming back aside from the hearts of a few polarized outside municipal Politicians, and their media partners pushing this reject transfer agenda long after it was called out and proven to be not a great choice by experts. As if it was even needed. Cant blame Tory too much for capitalizing after the better proposals were rejected. His overall plan incorporating all transit modes is also very good as a whole.

 

[OneCity]

Okay, then maybe for other transit projects or large projects in general. Are there any examples of projects that could have decisions made in this matter from the public rather than platforms for elections that can have benefits?

If it was just a small municipality and/or a clear yes or no question to put on the ballot to move forward, then it makes sense. How much weight would you give to the main population actually receiving the transit in an amalgamated City? Democracy isn't perfect but works as long as there is no stalemate polarization. That's what we have here and needs to be worked thru immediately before it causes greater issues. Not sure a ballot will even be required on transit in the future anyway

We are just starting to turn the corner where upper levels of Government can no longer be blind to the growing needs for transit expansion and relief anyway. To be taking away that focus or not supporting each other as a City to pressure upper levels right now could prove even more costly. I think more than anything that why this item is being pushed thru even if its not the most cost effect manner. The better options to connect SCC were rejected, no one will go back to the Ford approved LRT and we cant keep wasting time.

 

[Rainforest]

It is remarkable, and even comical at the end of 2017, that a certain anti-SSE fanatic still attempts to deny the fact that the funding for Eglinton East was a spin-off of the SSE project.

The said fanatic is so vested in their personal vendetta against SSE, that they will deny the reality and dismiss well-established facts; all in the futile attempt to inject some vitality in their hopelessly failed case.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It is remarkable, and even comical at the end of 2017, that a certain anti-SSE fanatic still attempts to deny the fact that the funding for Eglinton East was a spin-off of the SSE project.

I haven’t seen anyone here make the claim that EELRT funding was spun off SSE funding.

 

[Rainforest]

I haven’t seen anyone here make the claim that EELRT funding was spun off SSE funding.

? It certainly was spun off SSE funding.

They assembled something like $3 billion in commitments to SSE ($1.4 billion Provincial, $660 million Federal, and the rest from the city's property tax). Then at some point, Keesmaat and Tory said let's build a 1-stop SSE + EE LRT, instead of the 3-stop SSE.

There never was a funding (from any level of government) allocated to EE LRT directly. That line was included in the Transit City plan (under name Scarborough - Malvern LRT), but did not make it into the funded Phase 1 (Eglinton + SLRT + Finch + Sheppard).

Here is the link: https://torontoist.com/2016/01/does-the-tory-compromise-provide-better-transit-for-scarborough/

 

[TheTigerMaster]

? It certainly was spun off SSE funding.

They assembled something like $3 billion in commitments to SSE ($1.4 billion Provincial, $660 million Federal, and the rest from the city's property tax). Then at some point, Keesmaat and Tory said let's build a 1-stop SSE + EE LRT, instead of the 3-stop SSE.

There never was a funding (from any level of government) allocated to EE LRT directly. That line was included in the Transit City plan (under name Scarborough - Malvern LRT), but did not make it into the funded Phase 1 (Eglinton + SLRT + Finch + Sheppard).

Here is the link: https://torontoist.com/2016/01/does-the-tory-compromise-provide-better-transit-for-scarborough/

Sorry. I meant to say I’ve never seen anyone here make the claim EELRT funding wasn’t spun off of SSE funds.

 

[syn]

Sorry. I meant to say I’ve never seen anyone here make the claim EELRT funding wasn’t spun off of SSE funds.

Not only has it never been claimed, it's completely and utterly irrelevant to the fact that the SSE portion of the plan has run wildly over budget, so much so that there's no funding left for the Crosstown East.

At this point it's like SSE supporters are trolling us (or perhaps it reached that point a long, long time ago).