Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[kEiThZ]

I will submit that what has made the LRT a particularly hard sell was that it was not a greenfield routing. I think most Scarborough politicians realized that whatever was getting built, a 2 year shutdown anywhere near an election would be political suicide. And that's probably why Mitzie Hunter for example flip flopped.

I think this a bigger factor than most people have discussed on UT. If they were to propose a 2 year shutdown of the Sheppard subway for conversion to LRT as part of an LRT extension plan, how many think all of the councillors, MPs and MPPs would jump right onboard with that one?

I really think what makes the subway so attractive to them is that it avoids a shutdown on their watch.

 

[BurlOak]

I will submit that what has made the LRT a particularly hard sell was that it was not a greenfield routing. I think most Scarborough politicians realized that whatever was getting built, a 2 year shutdown anywhere near an election would be political suicide. And that's probably why Mitzie Hunter for example flip flopped.

I think this a bigger factor than most people have discussed on UT. If they were to propose a 2 year shutdown of the Sheppard subway for conversion to LRT as part of an LRT extension plan, how many think all of the councillors, MPs and MPPs would jump right onboard with that one?

I really think what makes the subway so attractive to them is that it avoids a shutdown on their watch.

I think this is true - which makes it all the more surprising that they did not consider the plan to convert to Mark II SRT vehicles with its expected 8 month shutdown.

 

[syn]

You contradict yourself, first complaining that the voters were lied to on transit issues; that suggests that transit was important enough to bother lying. And then in the next post you claim that the results of elections do not reflect the voter's preferences on transit, because the elections were decided by multiple issues.

Certainly, transit was not the only question on the table. And yet, it is evident that the voters are leaning towards the subway option, at least in this corridor. Chow started well ahead of Tory in the polls, she had all chances to be the leading "anything-but-Ford" candidate, and she didn't make any significant campaign mistakes other than turning against SSE. And yet, she slipped from 38% rating to 25%, while Tory advanced. There may be some additional factors that contributed to her poor performance, but I don't see any other major factor.

Now, it's true that the balance changed somewhat as the 3-stop subway plan changed to 1-stop plan. It would be pretty reasonable for the proponents of LRT to table candidates in the Scarborough ridings who will propose going back to the LRT plan. As well, it would be pretty reasonable for the proponents of SSE to table candidates who will push for the restored 3-stop plan. Let's wait and see who wins.

How is this a contradiction?

No one has written that transit wasn't an important issue. The point is that you can't simply declare the election results as an indictment on LRTs or direct support for subways. Believe it or not, but the City of Toronto exists far beyond Scarborough's borders. "Transit" includes the Finch LRT, the DRL, the waterfront LRT, service frequency, etc. On top of that, there are major issues like social housing.

Scarborough voted almost entirely for Doug Ford, who proposed the same plan as his brother - 32km of subways for just $9 billion, funded by upper levels of government and private partnerships (something which completely failed). Why didn't they vote for Tory instead, who also had Smart Track? Perhaps it's because they simply like Ford and his brother, and trust them for some inexplicable reason?

Looking at election results as LRTs vs Subways makes very little sense.

 

[syn]

All Scarborough politicians but one will run on the SSE. Transfers were a big part of the last 2 elections as far as Scarborough Is concerned. Surely there were more issues in the election.


I agree with all you said above. As much as its a main topic I never suggested all votes in Scarborough reside on the SSE debate, but we are certainly heading to bring it further to forefront as if it wasn't already a major election issue for the last decade. We certainly do disagree on the medias over-reach here on this topic. To me they have become a loud and ongoing promotional add for the transfer LRT and talking over the majority of Scarborough residents who clearly voted for candidates calling for a different plan. Although nice to see you recently acknowledged political media bias? We've already gone down this road and best to just accept we disagree.

The majority of Scarborough residents did not vote for this plan.

Calling out media bias means absolutely nothing; everyone knows it exists. What are specific examples of media bias? I appreciate you taking the the time to respond, but you're simply repeating yourself with statements that have no substance when it comes to the actual merits of a subway vs LRTs.

Currently more than 95% of Scarborough elected officials support the subway. Those types of numbers should be a clear indication about what to do with the old Scarborough transit plan. On this topic of transit Its suicide out here going against that type of democratic support and we are not going back to transfers before SCC or on Sheppard no matter what technology. So after 2 straight elections, we now clearly have a Political tantrum going on. On the topic of transit there are minimal votes to be gained in Scarborough running on the same transfer LRT platform no matter how much noise. And if Ford runs it will actually help the "Chow" (far "Left") type as he splits some vote from Tory who has decent middle ground support and would likely take more of the Ford vote. But I see the ridiculous transfer LRT vs. One stop subway (with the no funded Crosstown) debate having negative affect on both the "Chow" type and Tory.

Of course they do. It's now political suicide to oppose it if you're in Scarborough.

The fact that they support it is not as important as why they support it - this doesn't speak to any particular merits of either plan, aside from what they gain politically.

With Tory no longer having a "fake" transit plan in his pocket which was needed to squeak by last election, and the polarized "Opposition" continuing to relentlessly strong arm, and promote poorly placed transfers into Scarborough , I think Ford might be the one to benefit on the topic of transit. Given the fine line in support between victory, transit could prove to be the tipping point again, as it was shown to be last election. First and foremost people thru-out the City want to move on from this toxic debate and that can only be accomplished easily with a modification of the current subway plan at this late stage. If the "Opposition" even tried to compromise with an improved plan here, I really think they would have had a decent opportunity to gain some votes given the state Tory has left the subway and his crumbling Smarttrack. But with no attempt at all, again. It's now become just noise making with the same talking points that have already been on the table numerous times here.

What poorly placed transfers? Why are they poorly placed? Why is a 6km extension not poorly placed/thought out?

These are questions you are either unwilling or incapable of answering.

 

[kEiThZ]

I think this is true - which makes it all the more surprising that they did not consider the plan to convert to Mark II SRT vehicles with its expected 8 month shutdown.

An 8 month shutdown unless right at the beginning of their term is still rough (in the political sense). And using Mk II vehicles would now mean a transfer at Kennedy for the Eglinton LRT on top of everything.

 

[OneCity]

The majority of Scarborough residents did not vote for this plan.

What poorly placed transfers? Why are they poorly placed? Why is a 6km extension not poorly placed/thought out?

These are questions you are either unwilling or incapable of answering.

Weve discussed the other points ad nausea so Ill save the circles.

Again I agree with you the 6km extension a bad plan and poorly thought out. Two wrongs don't make a right and I have repeated that over an over I don't like either plan. But whenever someone questions the transfer LRT plan then this is the response, to bash Tory plan as if there Its my type of plan and make it seem as if there were no other reasonable (we likely disagree) avenues to modify and fix the issues called out. I have not intention to argue over these two lackluster plans. Just plug my nose and vote.

But if I have to choose between the two. I would choose progress, and for the removal of the transfer with hope the Lawrence stop is added, and/or fare Integration s implemented for Smarttrack. Best we can do at this point to move forward.

 

[OneCity]

Scarborough voted almost entirely for Doug Ford...Why didn't they vote for Tory instead, who also had Smart Track? Perhaps it's because they simply like Ford and his brother, and trust them for some inexplicable reason?
.

Overall votes were close between both Tory and Ford, ridings went to Ford. I've never voted for Ford. But the reason for such high support is hardly inexplicable. It just isn't reported properly so I get why it's seen as so inexplicable. I really used to think the same before I moved here, I had never seen or would've believed such a massive area of residents voices were been drown out to such a polarizing extent on all Politcal issues. Crazy to think someone with the personal history of Rob could be heavily supported in such a culturly diverse area. Kinda indicates how bad the underlying problem is. Which is why I also find It fascinating the "opposition" has dug its heals in at this stage on such a contentious issue and continues to push for transfers before SCC after such clear signals its not wanted. After the last two election already brought this topic to the forefront I don't believe this tactic will pay off politically in anyway, or help matters in a City that clearly needs to find some compromise to get moving past this phase.

We'll see how it turns out, my guess is not good. 3rd times a charm?

 

[Rainforest]

How is this a contradiction?

No one has written that transit wasn't an important issue. The point is that you can't simply declare the election results as an indictment on LRTs or direct support for subways. Believe it or not, but the City of Toronto exists far beyond Scarborough's borders. "Transit" includes the Finch LRT, the DRL, the waterfront LRT, service frequency, etc. On top of that, there are major issues like social housing.

Scarborough voted almost entirely for Doug Ford, who proposed the same plan as his brother - 32km of subways for just $9 billion, funded by upper levels of government and private partnerships (something which completely failed). Why didn't they vote for Tory instead, who also had Smart Track? Perhaps it's because they simply like Ford and his brother, and trust them for some inexplicable reason?

Looking at election results as LRTs vs Subways makes very little sense.

I explained it in my previous post.

If transit issues played a significant role in the elections, then it is possible to draw some conclusions from the way the majority voted (of course, it wasn't just LRT vs Subways, nobody claims it was).

 

[syn]

I explained it in my previous post.

If transit issues played a significant role in the elections, then it is possible to draw some conclusions from the way the majority voted (of course, it wasn't just LRT vs Subways, nobody claims it was).

Of course, one can look at the details come to a far more reasonable conclusion than LRTs were 'democratically rejected'.

No one candidate received the majority of votes.

Since Ford received the most votes in Scarborough, are we to assume Scarberians don't care about social housing, social justice, honesty or more transit in the form of Smart Track?

As for the claim: "The evidence was the first political plan with transfer was rejected overwhelmingly in the last two elections when given the democratic opportunity to stop it."

Weren't you telling me I should read more carefully?

 

[OneCity]

Of course, one can look at the details come to a far more reasonable conclusion than LRTs were 'democratically rejected'.

No one candidate received the majority of votes.

Since Ford received the most votes in Scarborough, are we to assume Scarberians don't care about social housing, social justice, honesty or more transit in the form of Smart Track?

As for the claim: "The evidence was the first political plan with transfer was rejected overwhelmingly in the last two elections when given the democratic opportunity to stop it."

Weren't you telling me I should read more carefully?

If many "Left" leaning Politicians were willing to work on compromise on some major issues (this is one) out here I think you'd see "us" Left leaning "Scarberians" (as you nicely call us) support other parts of the agenda. Sure the subway its not the only issue, but it will be the loudest one, and its mainly symbolic of an underlying problem for many political topics you and I likely don't agree exists. The unwillingness to connect Scarborough Centre and in other fashion than transfer LRT from what was cancelled 7 years ago has don't nothing to help matters. People here do care about many social issues, but there is a bigger issue in terms of democratic respect going on. And its rearing it ugly head.

Many residents fear being taxed to feed the "priority " (I hear it here all the time in this forum that downtown is the "priority") of downtown with out assurance we will get connected well or get our "fair" share. There is little trust in the elected official after the RT debacle, no other infrastructure investment in decades, and lack of detailed attention since as a whole since amalgamation. You likely don't care, nor do you agree. But that's the issue driving the Politics. The subway fight is more Potlically symbolic at this point and people in Scarborough as a whole won't appreciate having their decision forced by mainly outsiders Politicians. Refusing to connect Scarborough Centre in such determined manner is not going to be seen in any good light, no matter what nice social issue are in the platform. Therefore Ford (and Tory) politics resonate , for what seems obvious to me for seeing peoples voice get drown for inner City issues. We now have a large apathy vote and I think showing the inability to compromise here did more damage than good for the "Left" and if anything is only propelling the Fords and Tory's one stop as they refuse to come with any other options.

Before you accuse me of something different ill try to prevent that again. As again I don't personally support the Fords, but these are the issues that are helping to propel their politics as I see it. And the decision to fight back by the opposition on what has unfortunately become such a symbolic issue only helps these types IMO. I just want to see us move on as the quicker we build these bridges, the quicker we will see more unity in this City.

 

[syn]

If many "Left" leaning Politicians were willing to work on compromise on some major issues (this is one) out here I think you'd see "us" Left leaning "Scarberians" (as you nicely call us) support other parts of the agenda. Sure the subway its not the only issue, but it will be the loudest one, and its mainly symbolic of an underlying problem for many political topics you and I likely don't agree exists. The unwillingness to connect Scarborough Centre and in other fashion than transfer LRT from what was cancelled 7 years ago has don't nothing to help matters. People here do care about many social issues, but there is a bigger issue in terms of democratic respect going on. And its rearing it ugly head.

Many residents fear being taxed to feed the "priority " (I hear it here all the time in this forum that downtown is the "priority") of downtown with out assurance we will get connected well or get our "fair" share. There is little trust in the elected official after the RT debacle, no other infrastructure investment in decades, and lack of detailed attention since as a whole since amalgamation. You likely don't care, nor do you agree. But that's the issue driving the Politics. The subway fight is more Potlically symbolic at this point and people in Scarborough as a whole won't appreciate having their decision forced by mainly outsiders Politicians. Refusing to connect Scarborough Centre in such determined manner is not going to be seen in any good light, no matter what nice social issue are in the platform. Therefore Ford (and Tory) politics resonate , for what seems obvious to me for seeing peoples voice get drown for inner City issues. We now have a large apathy vote and I think showing the inability to compromise here did more damage than good for the "Left" and if anything is only propelling the Fords and Tory's one stop as they refuse to come with any other options.

Before you accuse me of something different ill try to prevent that again. As again I don't personally support the Fords, but these are the issues that are helping to propel their politics as I see it. And the decision to fight back by the opposition on what has unfortunately become such a symbolic issue only helps these types IMO. I just want to see us move on as the quicker we build these bridges, the quicker we will see more unity in this City.

Left leaning politicians have been compromising for decades. That's why we have the Sheppard Line (which still runs at a deficit) and not the DRL. That's why we haven't had a subway station built downtown (where there is actually density to support it) for 50 years.

You claim not to support the Ford's, yet buy into all of their nonsense. You claim the municipal election was a decision on the LRT, when it quite obviously wasn't - I believe you've confused "election" with "referendum". You claim it's about democratic respect, yet there seems to be absolutely no respect for the transit needs across the rest of the city, which include quite a few projects with a far higher priority than replacing a perfectly usable and functional RT line. They're going to be impacted by spending limited transit funds on what's ultimately going to be a $5 billion, 1 stop extension.

This thread is about the merits of a subway in Scarborough. You aren't providing any merits - you're just blaming the media for being biased with Ford/Trump calibre 'arguments'.

It's quite silly of me to engage - this is exactly what should be expected.

 

[OneCity]

Left leaning politicians have been compromising for decades. That's why we have the Sheppard Line (which still runs at a deficit) and not the DRL. That's why we haven't had a subway station built downtown (where there is actually density to support it) for 50 years.

You claim not to support the Ford's, yet buy into all of their nonsense. You claim the municipal election was a decision on the LRT, when it quite obviously wasn't - I believe you've confused "election" with "referendum". You claim it's about democratic respect, yet there seems to be absolutely no respect for the transit needs across the rest of the city, which include quite a few projects with a far higher priority than replacing a perfectly usable and functional RT line. They're going to be impacted by spending limited transit funds on what's ultimately going to be a $5 billion, 1 stop extension.

This thread is about the merits of a subway in Scarborough. You aren't providing any merits - you're just blaming the media for being biased with Ford/Trump calibre 'arguments'.

It's quite silly of me to engage - this is exactly what should be expected.

Again disclaimer time as you always throw your tantrum of false, stretched claims and implications in every response:

What I explained was that I understand the reasons why many people support him and tried to explain those reasons. I don't personally support the guy for various other reasons and whether I agree on one or two issue or not doesn't make me a supporter. Me and you likely even share those reasons in common. As a Mayoral competitor If you want to prevent someone like Ford from having a chance then you have to understand why people are voting for him and adapt. Because doing the same is a losing strategy. You agreed there is media bias too. Does that mean I can consider you a Ford voter?

 

[OneCity]

Since the topic is about SSE and we have determined transit is not everything but certainly a very important part of this City's election. Honestly, put personal politics & preferences aside, and be a political strategist here. What was the worst possible state the SSE could have been left in going into 2018 that would have given Ford a chance to gain votes in this topic?

Both Tory and the "Left" screwed up and are screwing up big time on this topic with the debate shifting to the old transfer LRT vs. a one stop subway going into 2018. Obviously there are positives to both plans which we have discussed. But at this critical stage "if" we are moving forward it will be the glaring negatives that will be attacked, and the one stop has provided the easiest opportunity for buying votes by cancelling Smarttrack and adding a stop.

Transfer LRT:

• already rejected
• requires new Environmental Assessment
• further delays and claims
• the TRANSFER
• unknown costs, and inflation when it does start
• RT shutdown

One Stop subway

• 3.5 Billion plus for one stop
• no faith in Smartrack or fare integration
• no funding for Eglinton East achieved

IMO the easiest path forward to keep on schedule and avoid the insanity of building 6KM underground for only one stop, is adding a stop and cancelling the Smartrack station at Lawrence. For the "opposition" not to offer anything to improve the LRT and for Tory to neuter both Smarttrack & SSE they basically gave Ford a chance to run on the path of least resistance

The reality is that these other Politicians had ample notice of the issues here with this line and knew exactly what and what Ford would campaign on. They completely opened the door and gave the donkey a huge opportunity by:
A) Not compromising or attempting to make an effort to modify the LRT in any way
B) In the case of Tory adding a Smartrack plan to cannibalize subway ridership and run on both.

There are other areas outside of transit they are playing into his hands but this isn't the proper forum and some people here are a bit too sensitive to any political discussion outside of the standard "left" rhetoric without getting angry and personal.

Politicians play Politics and while I would guess Tory will win next election, I cant believe the other "opposition" is giving Ford exactly what he wants with their my way or the highway stance here. That may make sense to some, but choosing to push the transfer plan and attack Tory will also help the opponent here.

Since I have to repeat things for some members to hopefully not make up false accusations. None of these three plans are my choice. But If I had to choose at this stage, the two stop subway and progress would be my choice, but In terms of a Mayor I could never bring myself to vote for Doug, so I would likely vote for the insanity of the one stop and some status quo calm under Tory. Im pretty sure many people will consider the two stop subway come election time as in many ways (not everyone) it makes alot of sense given this stage. I think both the Tory and the oppostion messed up politically on an important issue which has been at the forefront the Ford platform for two straight elections.

 

[Rainforest]

Of course, one can look at the details come to a far more reasonable conclusion than LRTs were 'democratically rejected'.

No one candidate received the majority of votes.

Since Ford received the most votes in Scarborough, are we to assume Scarberians don't care about social housing, social justice, honesty or more transit in the form of Smart Track?

As for the claim: "The evidence was the first political plan with transfer was rejected overwhelmingly in the last two elections when given the democratic opportunity to stop it."

Weren't you telling me I should read more carefully?

Although the phrasing "rejected overwhelmingly" may be an overstatement, it is fair to say that the voters clearly lean towards a plan that eliminates the transfer at Kennedy.

If the said distinction is important, you could point it out without attacking the original poster.

 

[44 North]

Driving by the Lawrence RT stop today I was reminded that the majority of Scarborough residents likely don't even know were this stop exists. There is minimal (if any) signage off Lawrence and the stop is completely buried out of sight. A similar problem ive always had with most of Scarborough transit stops, but this one is right out of sight and out of mind. Who would build transit like this in any era and expect it to succeed?

Just to shed light how insignificant the TTC Riders poll and PR campaign was:

630,000 residents in Scarborough
7,500 riders on the Lawrence RT stop

That is 1.2% of the population of Scarborough.

And I think they polled 200 of that 7,500(many of whom clearly don't read the newspaper or watch local news). Im not saying these few people that use the station(s) don't have reason to be upset. First as far as Lawrence goes they are still getting a solid form of transit, second the 7 stop debate has been had, certainly it has been given multiple chances already, and what i'm saying is this is so irrelevant in how Scarborough will vote as a whole. There is the narrative these "advocates" and opposition are hoping to create is that Scarborough people are "waking up". But this is so very far from reality IMO and pushing this transfer plan with zero changes to what has been rejected is truly a complete waste of time for them and everyone else. Ellesmere and Midland are even more insignificant in the greater scheme and residents outside these areas care more about SCC's future and moving forward. When I say this is a vocal minority its an understatement as for as Scarborough goes and our democratically elected officials more accurately reflect this.

Serious Challenge: If you have a friend or family member than doesn't read UT or care too deeply about public transit. Ask them to go for a drive on Lawrence Ave E and see if they notice there is a "rapid transit" stop on Lawrence. Ill be very impressed.


The majority of residents have already heard their spiel over and over and over. Anyone who reads Metrolands Scarborough Mirror has had their fill on transfer LRT promotion for 15 years. Not trying to be rude to this cause at all, but its already had its day. Im just trying to shed light on how far fetched the idea that this transfer LRT plan has any credence or realistic support. This type of misrepresented reporting can make it seem like the old plan has realistic support and a chance of coming back to outsiders looking in, but its this type of reporting which talks over what most are people prefer that's a big part of what's fuelling the likes of the Ford vote. They also like to tap into the apathy and their is obviously enough voters to support this ilk of Politician right now. Not a great Political strategy to do the same thing over and over in this climate. It's just so that from reality. Whether people in Scarborough agree with the current subway plan or not the debate is not being allowed to move forward from the old transfer LRT plan by the opposition. At this stage atleast come up with a better LRT plan than what was rejected multiple times before if you want overall residents to support the cause.

Whether we agree to disagree on the support or politics is completely OK. Feel free to debate but we'll soon get the answer again anyway. I still request for fun you to take the challenge Lawrence RT challenge. Even do it yourself as it truly gets me every time I drive by and think "hey I just passed a transit stop, and probably im the only one on the road at the time that even knew". A true head scratcher in transit design and yet one of many reasons the RT was an epic fail in Scarborough

Good thing I'm not advocating or pushing "the transfer LRT plan". And ultimately I think by most logical metrics SSE should not be considered an "upgrade". Sure we're omitting a transfer, but we'll also end up with a net zero increase in our subway system length. Stations? Net negative since we're losing four (this affects access, development opportunities, land value, etc). All this after spending x $Billion.

Also those Line 3/Lawrence East ridership #s aren't the best to use. The line is running decrepit loud trains, has a terrible transfer that everyone agrees is a problem, but most importantly it has capacity issues. By default the numbers are artificially lower than they should/could be since there's no room for more riders as peak. Side issues are that the City's planning dept has got its hands full and has for years now. Secondary plans or improving opportunities for development around Line 3 aren't seeing the treatment they theoretically could be. Not a Scarb thing, this is happening everywhere.

I don't really care what the opinion of Scarberians/Torontonians is. Everyone wants subways now, and 80% of ppl are stupid and don't know what's going on. Maybe +90%. IMO at least. But in case you weren't aware, SSE has been slashed to bits. There is no Lawrence station planned (nor one planned to be added at a later date). And it's been cut short from the original plans of reaching Sheppard. I know I mentioned my opinion on one drum-banger speaking on behalf of 3/4 million, but tell me: are those 3/4 million aware that SSE has been reduced to shreds? You make it sound so. But the handful of that 3/4M that use Line 3 certainly didn't know the current plans, so that doesn't exactly bode well when extrapolating.

Serious Challenge: If you have a friend or family member than doesn't read UT or care too deeply about public transit. Ask them to go for a drive on Lawrence Ave E and see if they notice there is a "rapid transit" stop on Lawrence. Ill be very impressed.

Meh to that sordid "serious challenge" of yours. Most stations are hard to see. Besides, those who follow TO's transit issues are well aware that Line 3 was done on the cheap and has serious problems. Which I guess is a reason there were plans to significantly remedy this going back 20yrs now. Nobody is arguing to keep the line as-is, so it'd help your argument if you were aware of this.