Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[OneCity]

Meanwhile,
The Most Expensive Mile
of Subway Track on Earth
How excessive staffing, little competition, generous contracts and
archaic rules dramatically inflate capital costs for transit in New York.

See link.



Something to remember, maybe even bookmark.

Some very good points about how bad the project culture in New York is and how they are getting run over by contract unions and consultants. I would suggest you bookmark in an appropriate separate thread. This is not appropriate unless trolling the SSE by using a Project culture issue from another Country and City is reasonable? If you feel for some reason this is a Toronto issue as well then it belongs here as much every other project

 

[christiesplits]

It's fascinating to think how the Scarborough subway extension debate would have played out had the Sheppard subway been built as originally planned to STC.

The per-ride subsidy would have been massive and the line's infamy would rival the Big O or Mirabel Airport as a White Elephant.

From a political standpoint, Scarborough politicians would not be able to make the "Scarborough deserves a subway" argument.

 

[Hopkins123]

It's fascinating to think how the Scarborough subway extension debate would have played out had the Sheppard subway been built as originally planned to STC.

The per-ride subsidy would have been massive and the line's infamy would rival the Big O or Mirabel Airport as a White Elephant.

From a political standpoint, Scarborough politicians would not be able to make the "Scarborough deserves a subway" argument.

Sheppard Subway to Scarborough Town Centre and inevitably to Malvern would have seriously diminished the need for the Bloor-Danforth to cover the same grounds.

Bloor-Danforth more likely would have continued across Eglinton and Kingston Rd and Morningside to end at UofT Scarborough with a Smarttrack-like service linking the two points and to the downtown.

 

[BurlOak]

It's fascinating to think how the Scarborough subway extension debate would have played out had the Sheppard subway been built as originally planned to STC.

The per-ride subsidy would have been massive and the line's infamy would rival the Big O or Mirabel Airport as a White Elephant.

From a political standpoint, Scarborough politicians would not be able to make the "Scarborough deserves a subway" argument.

If Sheppard went to STC, my guess would be that

• B-D would be extended to Eglinton/Kingston and
• the SRT would go from Kennedy Station to STC to Malvern (to maybe Zoo) to UTSC to Eglinton/Kingston.

 

[Rainforest]

It's fascinating to think how the Scarborough subway extension debate would have played out had the Sheppard subway been built as originally planned to STC.

The per-ride subsidy would have been massive and the line's infamy would rival the Big O or Mirabel Airport as a White Elephant.

From a political standpoint, Scarborough politicians would not be able to make the "Scarborough deserves a subway" argument.

Extending the Sheppard subway to STC wouldn't be best use of transit funds. The ridership counts for such extension would be 30-40% lower than for the BD extension.

However, you wouldn't need a particularly massive per-ride subsidy if it had been built. The ridership counts would improve somewhat compared to the today's stubway. It would still lose money for sure, but not on the scale to cause any public backlash. Some residential bus routes, that routinely carry < 10 people, probably require a higher subsidy.

Furthermore, the issue with Mirabel Airport was very noticeable because the travelers preferred to use Dorval. In contrast, the extended Sheppard subway would look busy enough to be perceived as useful. The scale of subsidies isn't on the mind of the average rider.

 

[OneCity]

Extending the Sheppard subway to STC wouldn't be best use of transit funds. The ridership counts for such extension would be 30-40% lower than for the BD extension.

However, you wouldn't need a particularly massive per-ride subsidy if it had been built. The ridership counts would improve somewhat compared to the today's stubway. It would still lose money for sure, but not on the scale to cause any public backlash. Some residential bus routes, that routinely carry < 10 people, probably require a higher subsidy.

Furthermore, the issue with Mirabel Airport was very noticeable because the travelers preferred to use Dorval. In contrast, the extended Sheppard subway would look busy enough to be perceived as useful. The scale of subsidies isn't on the mind of the average rider.

I strongly believe the Sheppard subway is going to be built. When? Who knows and the timeline will likely be heavily impacted upon the Provinces ability to take over subway expansion in the future. The Sheppard East LRT is likely going to sit as a place holder for rapid transit in this corridor and will be delayed infinitely until the subway confirmed. There is not enough support as long as the stub remains a subway. Next to the DRL long will be the Yonge to Richmond Hill and the completion of the Scarborough loop on Sheppard, with Mississauga and DRL West all in that cue. This will be far from a Mirabel and great long term transit backbone plan for the GTA. (As long as their are intermiediate stops along the way) While Politics will still impact pecking order, the sooner the Province takes control of the planning, the less volatile planning will be as we currently have internally in this City at the moment.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Extending the Sheppard subway to STC wouldn't be best use of transit funds. The ridership counts for such extension would be 30-40% lower than for the BD extension.

However, you wouldn't need a particularly massive per-ride subsidy if it had been built. The ridership counts would improve somewhat compared to the today's stubway. It would still lose money for sure, but not on the scale to cause any public backlash. Some residential bus routes, that routinely carry < 10 people, probably require a higher subsidy.

Furthermore, the issue with Mirabel Airport was very noticeable because the travelers preferred to use Dorval. In contrast, the extended Sheppard subway would look busy enough to be perceived as useful. The scale of subsidies isn't on the mind of the average rider.

NOTE: I am not a daily Sheppard Subway user, nor have ever been, however, I have experienced it quite a bit as I have friends that live near Leslie Station.
It is estimated that the Bloor Danforth line may require a higher subsidy (if any subsidy) per rider than the Sheppard line, especially when one considers that the line is much older and requires more maintenance, the trains are longer and require more power, more crew are necessary to support the line, and that 300,000 of the 500,000 daily users transfer from the BD line to the Yonge line. (I went over this in another thread). The point is that either all subway lines receive a subsidy, or no lines receive a subsidy (or barely any subsidy, including Sheppard).

Also, even now the Sheppard subway looks pretty busy; at least similar to what all the other subway lines look like midday. Crush loads? Only during failures. Standing room only? Very often during rush hours, and occasionally early evenings (The Sheppard subway is interesting because some days it's empty, and other days it's standing room only. It really depends on how many people are going downtown at the given time. Some Fridays can be painful, others plenty of room). Finally, we have to consider that the Sheppard Subway actually carries a lot of people: 50,000 daily. Considering that the line is 5.5 km, the line carries more passengers than the PATCO Speedline in Philadelphia, the Cleveland Subway, The San Juan Subway, The Baltimore Subway, The Staten Island Railroad and almost as much as the Miami, Pittsburg, Seattle, etc subways IN THEIR ENTIRETY. Going by route length, the Sheppard subway carries more or near the number of passengers per km than the Subway Lines of Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco (Excluding MUNI), Washington DC, London (More: Metropolitan, Picadilly, District, Around: Central, H&C, W&C), Copenhagen, Stockholm, Berlin, Helsinki, Hamburg, Milan, and comes somewhat close to Shanghai. (Again, those are system averages (daily ridership/length of system (km)). Calling the subway a white elephant is a little bit ignorant (it's not as great compared to the YUS line, BD line, but it is certainly not unreasonable).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

A lot of us will be dead before we see a Sheppard extension. The YNSE has always been a bigger priority for the Liberal government, and even that they’ve been dragging their feet on. The Yonge Line cannot physically accommodate the YNSE, let alone a Sheppard East extension. DRL Long is a prerequisite for both, and that won’t be materializing until the mid 30s.

 

[Streety McCarface]

A lot of us will be dead before we see a Sheppard extension. The YNSE has always been a bigger priority for the Liberal government, and even that they’ve been dragging their feet on. The Yonge Line cannot physically accommodate the YNSE, let alone a Sheppard East extension. DRL Long is a prerequisite for both, and that won’t be materializing until the mid 30s.

Would the Tories push YN, Sheppard East, Sheppard West, DRL short, DRL Long, DRL U, or even Bloor West? As much as I don't want them to win, they have a lot of support.

 

[11th]

Extending the Sheppard subway to STC wouldn't be best use of transit funds. The ridership counts for such extension would be 30-40% lower than for the BD extension.

However, you wouldn't need a particularly massive per-ride subsidy if it had been built. The ridership counts would improve somewhat compared to the today's stubway. It would still lose money for sure, but not on the scale to cause any public backlash. Some residential bus routes, that routinely carry < 10 people, probably require a higher subsidy.

Furthermore, the issue with Mirabel Airport was very noticeable because the travelers preferred to use Dorval. In contrast, the extended Sheppard subway would look busy enough to be perceived as useful. The scale of subsidies isn't on the mind of the average rider.

Tapping into those Scarborough bus routes will help, a lot. (and for a westbound extension, 7 Bathurst will also help). The "failure" of Line 4 is it managed to miss all the busier N-S bus routes, with the exception of 25 Don Mills. It's really disincentive currently for someone in north Scarborough to use Line 4 because it's be a bus-bus-subway-subway transfer going downtown, and they won't get a seat at Sheppard-Yonge. If they take any of the bus routes that feed into Finch, it'll only be a bus-subway transfer.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

I Who knows and the timeline will likely be heavily impacted upon the Provinces ability to take over subway expansion in the future. The Sheppard East LRT is likely going to sit as a place holder for rapid transit in this corridor and will be delayed infinitely until the subway confirmed. There is not enough support as long as the stub remains a subway. Next to the DRL long will be the Yonge to Richmond Hill and the completion of the Scarborough loop on Sheppard, with Mississauga and DRL West all in that cue. This will be far from a Mirabel and great long term transit backbone plan for the GTA. (As long as their are intermiediate stops along the way) While Politics will still impact pecking order, the sooner the Province takes control of the planning, the less volatile planning will be as we currently have internally in this City at the moment.

Given the err..."success"...of New York's state run MTA in this regard you might be careful what you wish for.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Actually... On second thought given how things have gone under city management, there really isn't anywhere to go but up, so really how much worse could it be....

 

[OneCity]

Given the err..."success"...of New York's state run MTA in this regard you might be careful what you wish for.

The cost of delaying, fighting, and cancelling has cost us significantly over the last few decades. The contractor union and consultant issues are a whole other topic and NY state needs to address their problem. The GTA needs to be consistently building subway in Toronto and to the bordering Centres without pause. We are far overdue in both relief of growth transit investments of the past and new growth investment for the future.

 

[syn]

NOTE: I am not a daily Sheppard Subway user, nor have ever been, however, I have experienced it quite a bit as I have friends that live near Leslie Station.
It is estimated that the Bloor Danforth line may require a higher subsidy (if any subsidy) per rider than the Sheppard line, especially when one considers that the line is much older and requires more maintenance, the trains are longer and require more power, more crew are necessary to support the line, and that 300,000 of the 500,000 daily users transfer from the BD line to the Yonge line. (I went over this in another thread). The point is that either all subway lines receive a subsidy, or no lines receive a subsidy (or barely any subsidy, including Sheppard).

Also, even now the Sheppard subway looks pretty busy; at least similar to what all the other subway lines look like midday. Crush loads? Only during failures. Standing room only? Very often during rush hours, and occasionally early evenings (The Sheppard subway is interesting because some days it's empty, and other days it's standing room only. It really depends on how many people are going downtown at the given time. Some Fridays can be painful, others plenty of room). Finally, we have to consider that the Sheppard Subway actually carries a lot of people: 50,000 daily. Considering that the line is 5.5 km, the line carries more passengers than the PATCO Speedline in Philadelphia, the Cleveland Subway, The San Juan Subway, The Baltimore Subway, The Staten Island Railroad and almost as much as the Miami, Pittsburg, Seattle, etc subways IN THEIR ENTIRETY. Going by route length, the Sheppard subway carries more or near the number of passengers per km than the Subway Lines of Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco (Excluding MUNI), Washington DC, London (More: Metropolitan, Picadilly, District, Around: Central, H&C, W&C), Copenhagen, Stockholm, Berlin, Helsinki, Hamburg, Milan, and comes somewhat close to Shanghai. (Again, those are system averages (daily ridership/length of system (km)). Calling the subway a white elephant is a little bit ignorant (it's not as great compared to the YUS line, BD line, but it is certainly not unreasonable).

Bessarion is still the least used station in the system - lower than Summerhill according to 2015 stats.

Sheppard's ridership is still quite awful, about 15 years after it opened. Bayview and Leslie also have poor ridership.

If anything the Sheppard Line (along with other terminal stations like Kipling and Kennedy) are excellent examples that 'build it and they will come' is a terrible subway planning strategy.

This is why the SSE is moving foward - politics. It's the same reason the Sheppard Extension was approved. It's not rooted any sort of sensible planning rationale.

Instead of Sheppard they should've built the DRL. An LRT would've been great for Sheppard, just as it will be for Eglinton, and as it would be for Scarborough.

 

[Cobra]

Bessarion is still the least used station in the system - lower than Summerhill according to 2015 stats.

Sheppard's ridership is still quite awful, about 15 years after it opened. Bayview and Leslie also have poor ridership.

If anything the Sheppard Line (along with other terminal stations like Kipling and Kennedy) are excellent examples that 'build it and they will come' is a terrible subway planning strategy.

This is why the SSE is moving foward - politics. It's the same reason the Sheppard Extension was approved. It's not rooted any sort of sensible planning rationale.

Instead of Sheppard they should've built the DRL. An LRT would've been great for Sheppard, just as it will be for Eglinton, and as it would be for Scarborough.

What'd you expect from a "stubway"? Despite that, people are standing during rush hour and the trains are packed.

Toronto has a priority problem, granted, doesn't mean a subway isn't needed on Sheppard or in Scarborough