David Miller: Toronto's future rides on commitment to transit

[gweed123]

There won't really be room for anything interesting in the Richview land because Eglinton will be widened. A trench can be built over...and if we're expecting cafes and galleries and 8 storey condos to be built by an army of elves, we can get them to cover segments of it. We wouldn't want them to cover it all, though, just as we wouldn't want the Yonge trench to be totally covered between Bloor and Eglinton. And what horrible neighbourhoods that partially-covered trench runs through!

Yeah, trenching really does ruin neighbourhoods doesn't it? I mean, an ugly trench right through the middle of Rosedale has really killed the vibrancy of the neighbourhood and has ruined land values...

 

[fanoftoronto]

I thought the eglinton lrt is in a ROW similar to the st clair street car or the spadina car? Am I wrong?

Yes and no. The LRT is gonna use different, longer vehicles, stops are gonna be farther away from each other compared to St Clair or Spadina streetcar.Other than that, the same. Also, it magically costs 4 to 5 times the St Clair ROW project!! No one knows how!!

 

[sixrings]

but it will be seperate from transit?

 

[sixrings]

it will b seperate from other cars?

 

[fanoftoronto]

it will b seperate from other cars?

The ROW is exactly the same for the LRT and the Spadina or St Clair streetcar ROW. ie: It is partially exclusive ROW, which means no cars will share its tracks but it is gonna stop for the traffic signals.

 

[sixrings]

well it is possible for the ttc to figure out priority lighting for the route... at least during rush hour... They arent morons they just have been stubburn with spadina.

 

[kettal]

Yes and no. The LRT is gonna use different, longer vehicles, stops are gonna be farther away from each other compared to St Clair or Spadina streetcar.Other than that, the same. Also, it magically costs 4 to 5 times the St Clair ROW project!! No one knows how!!

Are you joking? The price includes tunnelling, road widening, new electrical substations, and all new vehicle purchases, none of which were part of the St Clair project.

 

[kettal]

well it is possible for the ttc to figure out priority lighting for the route... at least during rush hour... They arent morons they just have been stubburn with spadina.

TTC has no control over traffic lights, only the traffic department does.

 

[fanoftoronto]

Are you joking? The price includes tunnelling, road widening, new electrical substations, and all new vehicle purchases, none of which were part of the St Clair project.

The St Clair project cost $106 million about 2 times the initial cost estimate, for 7 kilometres. So for the 14 kilometre Sheppard we'll put $250 million for the actual ROW. It will cost $750 million for the tunnels, road widening, electrical substations and vehicles?? I know you're not a fan of ballpark numbers but I think we're missing something.....

 

[kettal]

Actually, most of the cost is indeed in road widening, the associated land expropriations, and intersection re-configurations... outside of the tunnels, that is. It's not as easy to widen a road as you think. The railway underpass is no small potatoes either.

Laying some tracks and cement is the easy part.

 

[fanoftoronto]

Actually, most of the cost is indeed in road widening, the associated land expropriations, and intersection re-configurations... outside of the tunnels, that is. It's not as easy to widen a road as you think. The railway underpass is no small potatoes either.

Now that I think about it, it does make sense. so my bad. still seems high though!! also, you forgot about the LRT storage yard.

 

[Asterix]

Then you don't get what I'm saying because they're not forecasting demand. They're forecasting ridership. Demand implies that there's a static and quantifiable certainty of riders needing and/or wanting to take transit in that corridor, when this is simply not true. If more people would take a grade-separated line than would take something that's not grade-separated, the latter is hardly meeting "demand."

Again, I don't know their exact methodology, but when they calculate forecasted ridership might it not be possible that they are accounting for the various transit options? Maybe they do, maybe they don't. But according to their display panels, 2031 forecasts are for 5400 riders/hr. It would take a near-doubling to reach the 10,000 considered the base minimum to justify the expense of a full subway. Maybe your model does a better job though. I don't know.

The non-tunnelled portion will not be grade-separated. Unless a degree of zero counts.

Maybe this is a terminology disconnect. Does an exclusive right of way not count as some degree of grade-separation?

While the line will still have to contend with traffic lights, there is an improvement versus having to deal with cars on the streetcar tracks due to their increased grade compared to the rest of the street. Cars making left turns are waiting in their own lane, not blocking the transit vehicle. Isn't that some level of separation?

 

[fanoftoronto]

Maybe this is a terminology disconnect. Does an exclusive right of way not count as some degree of grade-separation?

While the line will still have to contend with traffic lights, there is an improvement versus having to deal with cars on the streetcar tracks due to their increased grade compared to the rest of the street. Cars making left turns are waiting in their own lane, not blocking the transit vehicle. Isn't that some level of separation?

But the LRT is not exclusive right of way. it's only partially exclusive. this means that no cars go on the LRT tracks but the LRT stops for traffic lights. The track is separate from the left turn lane as well but the LRT has to stop and wait when there is a green for the left turn lane. Exclusive right of way is if the LRT was completely grade separated either by going underground, elevated etc. This would mean the LRT will never be affected by what is going on in the roads. The subways and SRT is exclusive ROW. The LRT is like an upgraded St Clair or Spadina ROW. hope this clears it up.

 

[nfitz]

How the hell is a ROW down the middle of a suburban street "interesting"?

It's the use of the currently vacant land I'm referring to. I believe that you were proposing putting the scar down that, and not down the centre of the ROW.

 

[gweed123]

It's the use of the currently vacant land I'm referring to. I believe that you were proposing putting the scar down that, and not down the centre of the ROW.

Do you qualify the open cut on the Yonge line around Rosedale to be a "scar" as well? And yes I am proposing using the Richview Corridor for it's INTENDED PURPOSE, as a grade-separated transportation corridor. The initial plan for that strip of land was an expressway, so the houses around it were planned with that consideration. A transit corridor is far less disruptive. I don't really know what you have against open cut. I used to bike along right beside where the Transitway open cut section was, it's really not that bad.

And building that would be far less disruptive than ripping up the entire street, and ending up with Michigan Turns. This whole idea of "it has to be down the middle of the street everywhere we go" is absurd.