David Miller: Toronto's future rides on commitment to transit

[nfitz]

Technically the Eglinton LRT is not gonna be there in a 100 years. We're building the tunneled portion of the LRT to be easily converted to subway, which means the entire Eglinton LRT has to be changed to subway technology before around 2060.

It's hard for us to predict what transport demands will be more than 25 years from now. But I doubt that there will ever be the need for heavy subway west of Jane, even a hundred years from now ... though we'd be both fools to really have a debate about this.

 

[sixrings]

Technically the Eglinton LRT is not gonna be there in a 100 years. We're building the tunneled portion of the LRT to be easily converted to subway, which means the entire Eglinton LRT has to be changed to subway technology before around 2060.

That's one of the main reasons to build it as a subway right now or else, Eglinton Avenue will be affected by transit based construction twice in 50-60 years.

WHY Couldnt they in the future just put LRT on Lawrence. Then it would take some of the ppl off the EGLINTON line... create a new line which is good and saves from infrastrcuture upgrade also good.

 

[gweed123]

That's absurd. We're supposed to create a scar in the landscape that will be there for a hundred-plus years, instead of building something interesting? The last thing we need is another Allen Road type scar.

How the hell is a ROW down the middle of a suburban street "interesting"? And I would take the "scar in the landscape" that is functional and delivers true rapid transit to the airport, over an "interesting" ROW down the middle of the street that will have to stop at red lights.

 

[Fresh Start]

WHY Couldnt they in the future just put LRT on Lawrence. Then it would take some of the ppl off the EGLINTON line... create a new line which is good and saves from infrastrcuture upgrade also good.

OR, you could build the Eglinton subway line now and let demand for it grow. Despite the TTC's own claims that Sheppard subway is a failure, ridership has actually grown 126% up from the bus service it replaced in 2002 and within less than a decade has been a jump from 43,000 ppd to close to 55,000 ppd. The Spadina Line after 32 years is still considered an underachiver yet it is recognized as a vital, indispensible link which is being proactively extened further into lower-density areas. Baring all this in mind, how then is Eglinton not subway ready already with a daily ridership exceeding 100k and it being in the unique geographical position to siphon away riders from the entire Bloor-Danforth subway's north, east and west hand sides?

It's pennywise/pound foolish to (A) build higher-order as a one mode only to then convert it to another mode at a later date (SEE: Sheppard subway-LRT conversion and SRT ITSC-LRT-subway conversion), at (B) higher costs to build - equipment, wages, materials, EAs and to (C) then have to build a parallel LRT one concession to the north when the bus service there would be more than adequate.

 

[sixrings]

Id prefer a network. Less bus lines and more LRT lines the better...

Spadina is a failure because its surrounded by low density housing, or parking lots, or the allen... If they built condos on this coridor then it too would see a boost in ridership. The sheppard line has seen countless condos built beside it. The spadina line continues to be underseviced because its undeveloped.

 

[Fresh Start]

How the hell is a ROW down the middle of a suburban street "interesting"? And I would take the "scar in the landscape" that is functional and delivers true rapid transit to the airport, over an "interesting" ROW down the middle of the street that will have to stop at red lights.

Yup, forumers like him can make these wild, bordering-on-crazy proclamations yet have the audacity to dismiss my posts as laughable? I feel vindicated.

 

[reaperexpress]

That's absurd. We're supposed to create a scar in the landscape that will be there for a hundred-plus years, instead of building something interesting? The last thing we need is another Allen Road type scar.

I don't think that the impact of a trenched subway line would be even close to that of Allen Road. It would be about a quarter the width, so building bridges over it would not be so prohibitively expensive. Almost all existing crossings over the corridor would probably remain. It would be mainly green space, with tracks at the bottom, as opposed to being covered in asphalt so the visual impact would not be unpleasant.

It would also be quieter than an LRT in the street since ballasted track tends to be quieter than concrete-encased track, and the walls of the trench absorb sound and serve as a sound barrier.

 

[sixrings]

How the hell is a ROW down the middle of a suburban street "interesting"? And I would take the "scar in the landscape" that is functional and delivers true rapid transit to the airport, over an "interesting" ROW down the middle of the street that will have to stop at red lights.

Well I am sure that at one time Eglinton was considered suburbia.. Now Yonge and Eglinton is a growth area despite what its residents may want. With the allen I am confused why it cant be covered and built on top of to make Glencarin station and the other spadina stations viable...

 

[Fresh Start]

Id prefer a network. Less bus lines and more LRT lines the better...

Spadina is a failure because its surrounded by low density housing, or parking lots, or the allen... If they built condos on this coridor then it too would see a boost in ridership. The sheppard line has seen countless condos built beside it. The spadina line continues to be underseviced because its undeveloped.

Except that the majority of the condo-dwellers, according to a Toronto Star poll, don't regularly use the Sheppard subway. Bayview, where most of the inhabited condos are focused, is one of the least-used stations in the system. The ridership's primarily coming from feeder bus traffic to/from Scarborough, Don Mills and York Region at the far ends of the line.

It'd be a waste of funds to replace 52 Lawrence West with a streetcar. High-occupancy articulated buses are just as practical to a transit network as streetcars can be. What's needed is to place 10 minutes to the south a subway line, which last I checked would be in a network itself with DRL west, Spadina, Yonge, DRL east, B-D subway lines.

 

[sixrings]

Dispite what you say its not a streetcar. Streetcars downtown stop seemingly every 10 ft. The LRts are suppose to stop less often then the current bus route stops. So theres less stops and more speed. Lawrence is a important route as well and its bus it almost always full. Its a BLUE LINE Plus it too goes to the airport.

 

[gweed123]

Well I am sure that at one time Eglinton was considered suburbia.. Now Yonge and Eglinton is a growth area despite what its residents may want. With the allen I am confused why it cant be covered and built on top of to make Glencarin station and the other spadina stations viable...

I was referring specifially to the Richview Corridor area. That's about as 1950s/60s suburban as you can get. I see the Richview corridor being potentially like the Scott Street portion of Ottawa's Transitway (http://lh4.ggpht.com/_VJHUExlygEg/RhM7sheWRxI/AAAAAAAAAmg/v60laspbBDw/100_4754.jpg). Not the best picture, but yeah. Basically an open trench with concrete walls, that runs directly beside Scott St. Noise impact is minimal, and several new TOD developments, as well as the tallest residential highrise in Ottawa, have been built immediately adjacent to it. It cuts through Island Park, a similar neighbourhood as what exists along that stretch of Eglinton. In fact, in the upgrade plans to LRT, the trench isn't being changed at all. It's one of the most efficient parts of the entire Transitway.

 

[kettal]

Sheesh, that's one ugly transit way. And all that to avoid just 7 traffic lights, three of which are at minor intersections? Richview is the perfect candidate for surface LRT where it can be fast and reliable.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Fair enough. I understand the case you are making with respect to a re-working of the system to provide incentives to riders to feed to the new subway. Since I don't know the way the planners came up with their forecast demand numbers, I don't know whether they took this into account or not.

Then you don't get what I'm saying because they're not forecasting demand. They're forecasting ridership. Demand implies that there's a static and quantifiable certainty of riders needing and/or wanting to take transit in that corridor, when this is simply not true. If more people would take a grade-separated line than would take something that's not grade-separated, the latter is hardly meeting "demand."

While Eglinton will not be fully-grade separated the entire length, even the non-tunneled portion still will be grade-separated to a degree. Provided transit signal priority is properly implemented, the surface line will run significantly more efficiently than other non-subway options.

And cost is an issue since there would be a sizable difference to either bury or elevate the line currently planned to run on the surface. An LRT would not NEED to be completely separated whereas a subway would (which is both good and bad).

The non-tunnelled portion will not be grade-separated. Unless a degree of zero counts.

You were talking about the cost of a fully grade-separated LRT line using long, multi-car vehicles compared to the cost of a fully grade-separated subway line using long, multi-car vehicles. Running in the middle of the road and sharing intersections with cars is about as far as you get from grade separation.

How the hell is a ROW down the middle of a suburban street "interesting"? And I would take the "scar in the landscape" that is functional and delivers true rapid transit to the airport, over an "interesting" ROW down the middle of the street that will have to stop at red lights.

There won't really be room for anything interesting in the Richview land because Eglinton will be widened. A trench can be built over...and if we're expecting cafes and galleries and 8 storey condos to be built by an army of elves, we can get them to cover segments of it. We wouldn't want them to cover it all, though, just as we wouldn't want the Yonge trench to be totally covered between Bloor and Eglinton. And what horrible neighbourhoods that partially-covered trench runs through!

 

[sixrings]

I thought the eglinton lrt is in a ROW similar to the st clair street car or the spadina car? Am I wrong?

 

[fanoftoronto]

Sheesh, that's one ugly transit way. And all that to avoid just 7 traffic lights, three of which are at minor intersections? Richview is the perfect candidate for surface LRT where it can be fast and reliable.

Yes just to avoid that, and all the other U-turn signals that are being proposed for the LRT and also to avoid blocking 2 lanes off an important road for construction of the LRT. and as it was mentioned above, the development that will come can be built on top.