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rbt
Senior Member
I would be surprised if the final product wasn't LRT with several branch/exit points from the SRT ROW.
I distinctly recall the first report where the 8 months for SRT was a "more than" time period and the 3 years for LRT was an "up to". The reports author at that point was still pushing for the subway option at that time.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
The answer is that they both should be done. It's *not* one or the other...it never was one or the other and it never will be. The LRT is already up to $1.2B...throw in some branches (that, like along Sheppard, probably won't even be superior service compared to the buses they're replacing) and you'll end up spending a lot more. There's more to travel time than transfers, especially when the line will be stopping at red lights outside the tunnel. The tunnelled portion will never be extended if there's LRT on the surface...maybe in 100 years but we'll all be dead by then, so who cares.
Clearly, the RT is a better place for a subway extension since the RT is falling apart and that subway project would be short and cheap (not only due to the $1.7B slated to be wasted on keeping the RT), but Sheppard is seen as a priority by some for a number of obvious reasons. Much of the RT ridership base could be moved onto other routes, particularly since many are coming from close to Steeles, or way out along Lawrence, or the edge of Malvern. Some of Sheppard East's ridership base could also be shifted, but many RT riders are travelling much farther to use it - and they're transferring onto it, whereas the 85/190 is a local route.
The RT already has a grade-separated corridor that can be re-used; Sheppard does not. A Danforth extension would be replacing "rapid transit" while a Sheppard extension would be replacing buses. Sheppard was also slated for an extension until plans were abruptly changed with minimal or no input from councillors and planners...has there ever been a serious proposal to extend the subway to STC? Not really. RT service is bad enough that just about anything will be an improvement, but LRT will not be an improvement for Sheppard East. Some people are eager to prevent "another RT," which is what will happen when the LRT is finished along Sheppard. Kennedy station already has a mistake grafted onto it, Don Mills does not...yet.
Also, STC is in de Baeremaeker's riding...he certainly hasn't supported a subway extension, and projects often get ignored or wither when local councillors aren't involved. This just places more emphasis on pro-Sheppard subway extension blustering.
kettal
Banned
but they kiss
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Biting someone - be they human or raccoon or a deer in the headlights like de Baeremaeker - and giving them rabies is not a kiss.
kettal
Banned
The number of people actually going from North Scarborough to North York is well within the capacity of LRT. The real destination is downtown, and anyone who uses Sheppard to go from Scarborough to Yonge to get downtown is an idiot.
Councillors like Shiner are looking for porkbarrels. The suburbanites along Sheppard cry a river every time you suggest replacing their precious bungalows with townhouses or apartments.
Ansem
Banned
a billion for an extra 5-6 kph is normal to you?
at least if
-the stops were every 800m (26-27 kph)
-the intersections were reconfigured like on Eglinton LRT to avoid stoping at red lights
-going straight to STC
But clearly Miller and his gang never used the Sheppard corridor.
jwill
Active Member
Its a bit misleading to suggest that all we get for a billion dollars is 5-6kph. We also get better vehicles, higher capacity, and a quieter and cleaner street environment.
I'm not saying its the right thing to do, but there is more to this project than a small speed increase.
I'm not saying its the right thing to do, but there is more to this project than a small speed increase.
Paleo
Active Member
By the same token, why spend a couple billion more (for subway) just to get another 5-6kph?
Ansem
Banned
-it would be an extra 10 kph compare to buses
-Two major town center linked by rapid transit eliminating unnecessary transferts from Downsview to STC.
-Bus 190 can be cancel and the buses can be use on other routes.
-Lrt to morningside??? nuff said...
-The line as is outperforms 4 of chicago's line that are 4X longer and have 4X more station that goes downtown
-Metrolinx wanted a rapid nothern crosstown...Sheppard East LRT is anything but rapid transit
You know what...let's built nothing. Let's built LRT all over the city who will feed more commuter to a subway network that is already saturated.
The more I look at it, the more it seems Torontonians are the reason why their city is not greater on an international scale. Torontonians continue to absorb any crap that deconnected mayors and councillors feeds them and they claim to be a first class city. Not with a network like this, filled with gaps and non sense transfert.
I live on Sheppard West and use the Sheppard Corridor and looking at the empty Sheppard-Yonge plateform makes me sick. It was built that big because someone believed that it would attract the commuters to justify its construction. Who would have thought NYC would be it's own downtown? STC keeps on getting bigger.
Then I won't post on this anymore. When network collapses Torontonians will have only themselves to blame. Any 1st class city would laugh at our network like Willowdale councillor said.
I did my part, I emailed the media so they could questions the project. Others wrote letters to future candidates for mayor and other started petition.
And you know what. I take back what I said about Richmond Hill. They deserve their subway WAY more than we do.
nfitz
Superstar
Indeed ... why not go to Vancouver's skytrain technology instead ... and get at least 35 km/hr the SRT gets ... or the 45-km/h Vancouver's Expo Line gets.
UD2
Active Member
Any first class city would agree with me that the current traffic at Sheppard and Yonge is acceptable for a subway stop. And sheppard and Yonge is by no way a large station either.
And dude. 10kph over buses = 5 kph over LRTs. But Jwill is right. However the 5 - 6 kph extra is waaay underrated. I drive on the highway 70% of the time and my trip computer only average around 55kph (please don't argue with me over this unless your car came with one of this and you honestly can get a higher number). So for a 5-6 kph increase on a local road is very significant.
Keep in mind that the cost of subway doesn't end at the extra 4-5 billion that it'll cost to build, but also in maintinance and operation.
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UD2
Active Member
To build an underground LIM system would only cost more than a third rail powered subway and good luck on getting a Scarb RT style raised system approved.
BTW. The SRT is the Van skytrain without the ATC. Look how well that's being recieved.
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scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
You're right...it's misleading because it's actually more than a billion and less than 5-6km/hr (keeping in mind that that's just estimated vehicle speed, not real travel times that factor in frequency and bunching and so on). That 5-6km/hr applies largely to rather short trips - 4km, 6km, etc. - and also applies only to the pm rush and assumes absolutely no improved bus service, such as a longer Rocket, or a direct tunnelled exit from Don Mills station to eastbound Sheppard, which would noticeably reduce travel times. Streetscape improvements will look nice with as many as five bus routes continuing to ply Sheppard east of Don Mills.
nfitz
Superstar
The Scarborough RT has ATC; all the driver does it close the doors, and let the system take over ... just like the Montreal metro; or at least that's how it was originally designed ... the shape of it these days, I'm surprised they don't get behind and push
And to be fair, the scheduled 35 km/hr service is a bit of an underestimate, because it's such a short run, and the long wait times at the terminal ... and the slow crawl from Scarborough Centre to McCowan. It's about 6.0 km from Kennedy to Scarborough Centre, and the scheduled travel time is 9 minutes ... that's 40 km/hr. Can you imagine if the subway moved that fast? Kennedy to Kipling would be 39 minutes instead of 48 minutes. Union to Finch would be 23 minutes instead of 28 minutes.