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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

nfitz said:
Then why will Eglinton run at the same speed as the BD, when there is only 11 stations (11 journey segments) from Brentcliffe (due north of Pape) to Keele, when there are 15 stations on the BD for the same distance; especially as the SRT has faster acceleration than the subway (and the LRT should match the SRT?) Shouldn't the operating speed be faster than 30 km/hr?

Let's look at it this way. The station spacing for the 11 stations on the 9.5 km from Brentcliffe to Keele averages 860 metres. The station spacing for the 3 stations on the 2.4 km from Ellesmere to McCowan is 800 metres. Yet for that distance the SRT takes 4 minutes averaging 36 km/hr compared to 30 km/hr on Eglinton (and I have to think with that curve between Ellesemere and Midland, and the way it crawls from Scarborough Centre to McCowan, that the SRT isn't exactly at it's best!).

Why is the planned speed for Eglinton much slower than the SRT, when the stations average further apart?

It seems to me the predicted travel time from Brentcliffe to Keele should be closer to 14 minutes than 19 minutes.
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I do agree the estimated speed for eglinton seems a little low, maybe they are arbitrarily limiting the maximum speed on the simulations? As long as the LRT vehicles can cruise at 70 km/h then I would not worry about it.

The SRT is such a short trip that a small drop in speed would be more than offset by any one of the following, the extension, decrease in headway that would happen, or even a subway extension.
 
I'm not sure there are any simulations; they simply seem to divide the distance of the underground sections by 30 km/hr to obtain the travel time.
 
If you read the Capital Budget, there is no money under the SRT anymore and kind of say Bye Bye SRT, hello LRT.:):):)
 
drum118 said:
If you read the Capital Budget, there is no money under the SRT anymore and kind of say Bye Bye SRT, hello LRT.:):):)
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It's still there. The only reason why the city has it "Excluded" from the capital budget was that it was already paid for by the Province($1.9 Billion) and they didn't need to factor it in the 2010 budget. But like others here i prefer a subway over a SRT or LRT anyday.:rolleyes:
 
I have a idea, why not have the MKII ICTS/ART use regular motors instead? Have the whole line including the Eglinton LRT built to subway specs and have the modified MKII ICTS/ART run along them until we need the space and speed of a HRT. MKII trains have just about the same space as a LRT and it would be a easy switch over to HRT in the future as a third power rail and tracks will already be installed.

ICTS/ART trains are built to order just like Subway trains are they can install regular motors in them just as easily. The GO-ALRT program proved this.
 
^^ But... why would you make it ART with Regular motors? Actually, that whole idea makes absolutely no sense to me.

The two advantages of ART is it's high acceleration and high frequencies (though subways with ATC can run at the same frequencies.) But ART trains are much smaller than subway cars and in the end have a much, much lower capacity than subway. Why would you build a line using ART if you're building it to subway spec? It's a total waste of money.

An Eglinton Subway/LRT would be reasonably full from day one, that much is obvious from the busses that pile up along Eglinton, filled with passengers. And I'm thinking it'd intercept over 50% of the B-D's passengers as well, which could very well put it up to 200K riders per day. Why you'd cripple it for no good reason using ART that isn't actually ART instead of subway even though it's built to subway specs... just makes no sense.

If you think it does, please explain your reasoning a bit more cause I can't make any sense out of that :eek:
 
Second_in_pie said:
^^ But... why would you make it ART with Regular motors? Actually, that whole idea makes absolutely no sense to me.

The two advantages of ART is it's high acceleration and high frequencies (though subways with ATC can run at the same frequencies.) But ART trains are much smaller than subway cars and in the end have a much, much lower capacity than subway. Why would you build a line using ART if you're building it to subway spec? It's a total waste of money.

An Eglinton Subway/LRT would be reasonably full from day one, that much is obvious from the busses that pile up along Eglinton, filled with passengers. And I'm thinking it'd intercept over 50% of the B-D's passengers as well, which could very well put it up to 200K riders per day. Why you'd cripple it for no good reason using ART that isn't actually ART instead of subway even though it's built to subway specs... just makes no sense.

If you think it does, please explain your reasoning a bit more cause I can't make any sense out of that :eek:
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It was more of a compromise idea. Metrolinx wants a ICTS/ART, The City wants a LRT and the rest wants a Subway. As I said in the Eglinton-Crosstown thread of the same idea; right now we have the politicians willing to pay for these projects on the provincial and federal level. We should look at building into the future on a full subway ready instead of a half-done subway because 10-20 years down the road when the traffic on the SRT and Eglinton LRT becomes overcrowd yet again we'll be getting excuses why their isn't any money to convent the SRT or Eglinton to a subway. So if we don't get it subway ready now, we won't see it when we truly need it.

My idea with converting the ICTS/ART with regular motors was that we wouldn't deal with the problems associated with LIMs and Metrolinx get some form of their ICTS/ART they wanted. Another factor was that converting LRT lines over to Subways isn't going to be simple or quick at least with the ICTS/ART we have close to same amount LRT capacity plus third rail power and platform height will already be there once we need to use HRT trains.
 
^^ Ok... so using ICTS MKII trains but instead of using LIMs, use regular motors with a 3rd rail?

I'd like to maintain that really the only thing that differentiates ART from regular metro technology is the use of LIMs. They allow for a much higher acceleration, yet the drawback is a higher cost. With this increased acceleration, it allows for trains to run at higher frequencies, which was made very doable with the ATC system that was developed for ICTS. Since they realized they didn't need as high a capacity per train as subway due to the high frequency, they made the cars smaller and shorter to save on money and I assume increase speed and acceleration.

ICTS really works best where there isn't really crush load demand. If it's along an equal corridor, like through a downtown strip, the combination of intermediate capacity and high frequencies can make it a life saver. If it's something like Eglinton which could potentially have high crush loads similar or higher than that of the B-D, those loads will overwhelm the system. Not including that ICTS has lower overall capacity than subway, with crush loads, many trains could potentially go by before the platform's emptied.

This is why ICTS works well at Airports, where they can be run at high frequencies and the passengers are fairly evenly distributed throughout the whole system, and very little crush load but high all around demand that will justify the frequency.

So to sum it up, I think that Metrolinx is really only trying to take up ART/ITCS because it's not subway. The city has shown time and time again that they are no longer interested in building subway, yet they were very willing to extend the SRT rather than a Subway+LRT combo. I think Metrolinx saw this acceptance of a true metro system, and appealed to the City for them to use SRT technology.

I believe that Metrolinx truly wants subway along Eglinton. They understand the good network connectivity that it would create, and the peak period crush loads that it will need to handle as either subway or LRT.

And choosing your idea of replacing LIMs with regular Motors would simply pay the same price for a lower capacity. It really makes no sense, sorry :(
 
^^^

The problem is that Metrolinx who is footing the bill for SRT upgrades and half of Transit City seems to have their mind up on what technology they want. Same can go for the City, most of their argument of LRTs are "it makes the area look pretty" and "Europe does it, why can't we". I'm just tired of their excuses of not building a subway when we have the province and federal government agreeing at the moment to help pay for them. I say lets build a subway now before the province and federal governments turn off the funding tap for the next 20-30 years.
 
I like the idea of replacing Scarborough RT with LRT because it'll most certainly get overcrowded and show what a disaster it was. Then they can build the subway underneath.
 
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