Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[BurlOak]

I found this alignment on a TTC presentation, but I couldn't find the analysis of routes on why this did not make the short list.

My guess would be that the short list found that the McCowan route is preferred because it hits nodes at Brimley, Lawrence, STC and Sheppard.
The other one to make the short list was Midland, so the STC station could be in the middle of STC.
The final one was along the SRT corridor.

When the short list was being analysed, they realized they had to cut money, so they stripped the stations to save money - even though without intermediate stations they may have screened out a preferred solution.

 

[micheal_can]

I found this alignment on a TTC presentation, but I couldn't find the analysis of routes on why this did not make the short list.

My guess would be that the short list found that the McCowan route is preferred because it hits nodes at Brimley, Lawrence, STC and Sheppard.
The other one to make the short list was Midland, so the STC station could be in the middle of STC.
The final one was along the SRT corridor.

When the short list was being analysed, they realized they had to cut money, so they stripped the stations to save money - even though without intermediate stations they may have screened out a preferred solution.

Which is why 5-10 years after the extension is opened, they may put one or many of those stations in later.

 

[Anonymous2000]

SRT or Brimley. McCowan is too expensive and time consuming.

I'm a steadfast advocate for the Brimley corridor and therefore I second of what Rainforest says about Brimley.

1) It's a shorter distance than going up Danforth Rd and Mc Cowan and alongside Brimley between Lawrence Ave and St Andrews Rd we can trench this portion of the line to bring down the cost.

2) Once at Scarborough Centre, we can build the station between Triton and Omni along Borough Dr and, we also have some lee way with drilling the launch site as an empty field sits north of Triton. The Mc Cowan alignment never had such flexibility with this option

3) With this alignment, Should the time come to extend the subway north to Sheppard we have some flexibility to decide on whether to continue north along Brimley or veer in a north easterly direction towards Mc Cowan and put an extra station at Corporate Dr and continue north.

4) No expropriation required

Why is it that City Staff are still insistent with the Mc Cowan alignment even after eliminating the stop at Scarborough Hospital?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

100% agree there is no reason for the RT corridor not be used over a one stop McCowan.

But this extension has massive election implications Municipally and also on the Provincial level. Sheppard was also easily torn up because the decision was supported by the majority of residents west of McCowan few of whom were impressed to have an extra inconvenient transfer to their commute.

This is pure Political suicide for Tory if he cant move this forward. I have an extremely hard time seeing it cancelled. The last thing we need is to re-open this debate.

Here's thing. If Brown pulls out, what can Tory do? Remember, he doesn't need Scarborough to win either. Most people won't have a problem with this up to a point given the projected low ridership. The Sheppard subway was also dropped by the harris government way back when for the same reasons. Cost need to be kept low because if the province says no? That's it. It's over.

• Eglinton to Midland north to Gatineau Hydro corridor. 1.8km of cut-and-cover tunnel. No stations.
• Gatineau Hydro corridor to McCowan. 1.8 km of at-grade, trench under Lawrence & Brimley & elevated over Highland Creek. 2 stations, 1 at Lawrence (at Brimley) in trench and 1 in Gatineau corridor (east of McCowan) elevated (back entrance to hospital).
• McCowan to STC (actually at, or immediately east of McCowan - at Town Centre Court). 1.8km of cut-and-cover tunnel. Terminal station at/near STC.
• OR
• McCowan to Sheppard (to CPR yard). 4.5km elevated. 2 Stations, 1 at STC (actually at McCowan / Town Centre Court), 1 at Sheppard / McCowan. (I don't recall who suggested a yard at CPR, but it seems to be a good one).

View attachment 95999

So which one is the best out of these? I think the Hydro Corridor works, minimal interruption and the most service. I can see someone promote the McCowan to Sheppard line, only to then turn around and try to get Sheppard East completed.

I'm a steadfast advocate for the Brimley corridor and therefore I second of what Rainforest says about Brimley.

1) It's a shorter distance than going up Danforth Rd and Mc Cowan and alongside Brimley between Lawrence Ave and St Andrews Rd we can trench this portion of the line to bring down the cost.

2) Once at Scarborough Centre, we can build the station between Triton and Omni along Borough Dr and, we also have some lee way with drilling the launch site as an empty field sits north of Triton. The Mc Cowan alignment never had such flexibility with this option

3) With this alignment, Should the time come to extend the subway north to Sheppard we have some flexibility to decide on whether to continue north along Brimley or veer in a north easterly direction towards Mc Cowan and put an extra station at Corporate Dr and continue north.

4) No expropriation required

Why is it that City Staff are still insistent with the Mc Cowan alignment even after eliminating the stop at Scarborough Hospital?

I guess either it's the lack of sharp turns. Or it looks better on the map. Markham Road was also a consideration at one point too.

 

[Steve X]

Why is it that City Staff are still insistent with the Mc Cowan alignment even after eliminating the stop at Scarborough Hospital?

The project website has the plans for the McCowan alignment to reach Sheppard/McCowan along with identified locations for stations at Danforth/Eglinton, Lawrence/McCowan, Progress/McCowan and Sheppard/McCowan. They'll choose the alignment that will protect for future stations and extension to Sheppard.

TTC would probably prefer to have the station on McCowan than Brimley as majority of the routes feed from the east adding to operation cost.

If the city does come back to adding in the station later, I would prefer to see a station at Danforth/Eglinton making McCowan a better alignment.

 

[smallspy]

I am getting so sick of this SkyTrain is proprietary crap I am going to puke. Whether you absolutely LOVE SkyTrain or detest it with a passion I don't care but it is NOT proprietary. Again, it is NOT proprietary. Did I mention yet that SkyTrain is NOT proprietary?

So, which of Siemens, Alstom, CAF, Vossloh, Breda, Kawasaki, Hitachi, Rotem, etc. have had or currently have on offer a railcar that uses a proprietary LIM design that runs on two rails spaced out at 4' 8 1/2" apart?

I'll wait.





Is that crickets?

When Toronto built the SRT is was proprietary under Bombardier but in case the TTC missed it that was 35 years ago.

When Toronto built the SRT, Bombardier didn't own the technology yet. It was marketed by UTDC, which got bought by SNC-Lavalin in the mid-1980s. Bombardier didn't take over until 1991 - a full 6 years after the SRT was built.

Back then a low-floor streetcar would have been proprietary but then so was the Sony cassette player.

What in the holy hell does that mean?

For the record, my cassette player in 1984 was made by Panasonic. So....yeah. Really proprietary there.

Today LIM is not only common but being built increasingly more frequently as it is ideal for automated operation which many systems are converting to. So, here's the list.............. Tokyo, Toei, Osaka, Yokohama, Kobe, Sendai, Fukuoka, Beijing, Yongin, Guangzhou, Kuala Lumpur Metro systems as well as New York, Detroit, and of course, Vancouver. There are several LIM train/Metro manufacturers in China as well as the big boys of Kawasaki, Hitachi, and Bombardier coming in all shapes and sizes. Several of those cities get decent amounts of snow and are just as cold in the winter as Toronto so that shoots that excuse all to hell. As I write this it is -1C in Beijing.

It's funny that about half of those systems that you've listed are Bombardier systems, using the proprietary Bombardier design. Of the rest.....are they remotely compatible with each other? Or are they one-off systems built due to a very specific set of circumstances?

And while you're doing the research on that, you may also want to check to see how many of them don't run outside.

Now unless Toronto is going to have the audacity of saying that China, Japan, and S.Korea know far less about urban transit than Toronto I politely suggest that this excuse of the SRT being proprietary come to a screeching halt. The failure of the SRT has NOTHING to do with the technology and EVERYTHING to do with the TTC letting it rot into the ground.

Why? You've done absolutely nothing to dispel it. All you've done is proved your fanboy-ness about it.

A LIM is not a proprietary technology, and certainly has its time and place. (Is public transit that time and place? Well......) ART as executed on the SRT and by Bombardier is most certainly proprietary as there is only a single source of purchase.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[WislaHD]

So, which of Siemens, Alstom, CAF, Vossloh, Breda, Kawasaki, Hitachi, Rotem, etc. have had or currently have on offer a railcar that uses a proprietary LIM design that runs on two rails spaced out at 4' 8 1/2" apart?

I'll wait.

Is that crickets?

The answer is whichever one of those companies that wants our taxpayer dollars that we love to throw left and right at companies Metrolinx signs contracts with, such as Bombardier.

I think as profitable companies, they all like money. So I see this working out for a large, wealthy and internationally recognized city like ourselves.

 

[smallspy]

The answer is whichever one of those companies that wants our taxpayer dollars that we love to throw left and right at companies Metrolinx signs contracts with, such as Bombardier.

I think as profitable companies, they all like money. So I see this working out for a large, wealthy and internationally recognized city like ourselves.

Even they have their limits.

Bombardier was handed the technology. They've paid to keep it up-to-date, but they didn't have to pay the initial design and set-up costs.

Look at the streetcar project. No doubt that it would be profitable for someone - but would it be profitable enough? Apparently a bunch of the manufacturers didn't think so, which is why they didn't bid.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[WislaHD]

Even they have their limits.

Bombardier was handed the technology. They've paid to keep it up-to-date, but they didn't have to pay the initial design and set-up costs.

Look at the streetcar project. No doubt that it would be profitable for someone - but would it be profitable enough? Apparently a bunch of the manufacturers didn't think so, which is why they didn't bid.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I'm not as much of an expert on this as others on here are, but my understanding is that there are intensive requirements for bidding on the contract, such as having a large percentage of the production be based here in Canada. That is almost 'rigging' the bidding process in favour of Bombardier, who met the requirements and then underbid the competition anyway.

 

[amnesiajune]

I'm not as much of an expert on this as others on here are, but my understanding is that there are intensive requirements for bidding on the contract, such as having a large percentage of the production be based here in Canada. That is almost 'rigging' the bidding process in favour of Bombardier, who met the requirements and then underbid the competition anyway.

The requirement was only 25%, and it wasn't in place until after the first round of bidding, where neither Bombardier and Siemens met the technical requirements (both proposals would've been incompatible with our streetcar tracks' tight turns). In the second round Siemens asked for $250 million more than Bombardier, which is why they didn't get the contract.

Also, the 25% requirement isn't municipal. It was set by the provincial government, who paid for a third of the cost. Ottawa's Confederation Line is using rolling stock built in New York, but they had to pay for the entire LRT on their own.

 

[micheal_can]

What is the difference between the Skytrain cars and SRT cars? Are they interchangeable?

 

[amnesiajune]

What is the difference between the Skytrain cars and SRT cars? Are they interchangeable?

The technology is the same, but the vehicles are different. Vancouver uses three types of ICTS trains - Mark I, Mark II and Mark III. The SRT uses the Mark I trains, and isn't compatible with the Mark II and III trains because of the tight turn at Kennedy station.

 

[smallspy]

What is the difference between the Skytrain cars and SRT cars? Are they interchangeable?

If you're referring to the Mk1 Skytrain cars, when built, they were almost identical to the SRT cars. The major difference was that the SRT cars had a cab fitted in them, and the Skytrain ones didn't.

Since then, they've diverged. Translink has upgraded the signal system a couple of times, and the onboard hardware with it as well. The TTC is using much of the original signalling system and computer hardware required to operate it - although the main computer system that the signals run on has been upgraded a couple of times, the version of the signal system is the same, and the onboard hardware on the cars is still basically original.

The Mk2 and Mk3 cars are considerably larger (56 feet long versus 40 feet, 8'9" wide versus 8'6"), and thus don't fit onto the existing network without some modifications.

Dan
Toronto Ont.

 

[OneCity]

Here's thing. If Brown pulls out, what can Tory do? Remember, he doesn't need Scarborough to win either. Most people won't have a problem with this up to a point given the projected low ridership. The Sheppard subway was also dropped by the harris government way back when for the same reasons. Cost need to be kept low because if the province says no? That's it. It's over.
So which one is the best out of these? I think the Hydro Corridor works, minimal interruption and the most service. I can see someone promote the McCowan to Sheppard line, only to then turn around and try to get Sheppard East completed.

I guess either it's the lack of sharp turns. Or it looks better on the map. Markham Road was also a consideration at one point too.

You are assuming alot, including a Conservative victory, Brown being a Mike Harris type and that the voter having the same appetite for that kind of regressive politics after going thru that exercise and the recent nauseating subway vs. LRT municipal debate. If anything Brown is a slight shift toward center and is also being coached up by DoFo. I think they have been crystal clear on the support for subways within Scarborough. And yes they want the votes dearly. What would be certain with the Brown-Ford admin would be zero support for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT (which has always been the case with the Liberals as well). This is a very different political climate with all parties at all levels in full support and I dont see it going back to the technology table whatsoever.

The Hydro corridor looks to be a solid solution indeed.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

You are assuming alot, including a Conservative victory, Brown being a Mike Harris type and that the voter having the same appetite for that kind of regressive politics after going thru that exercise and the recent nauseating subway vs. LRT municipal debate. If anything Brown is a slight shift toward center and is also being coached up by DoFo. I think they have been crystal clear on the support for subways within Scarborough. And yes they want the votes dearly. What would be certain with the Brown-Ford admin would be zero support for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT (which has always been the case with the Liberals as well). This is a very different political climate with all parties at all levels in full support and I dont see it going back to the technology table whatsoever.

The Hydro corridor looks to be a solid solution indeed.

I do. And I see either the subway nothing getting built. Why? Ontario has too much debt. We'll see. Brown and Doug don't hang out a lot. And again, he doesn't actually need Scarborough. We'll see. But I have it at 50/50 right now. I would love to see this built but people do read the Star and even the Sun, and the escalating costs right now is not a good thing to say the least.