Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[salsa]

If it's true that change can't really be affected, then there's equal reason to distrust projections about development due to LRTs. Just saying.

Nowadays city planning priorities have shifted more toward avenue development rather than growth centres, which LRT is ideally suited for. It doesn't mean that the growth will actually happen, but for the most part the proposed light rail lines are replacing some of the busiest bus routes and thus have the ridership to justify it. Whereas subway advocates rely entirely on "built it and they will come" for their subway to succeed.

Going forward from now, it's not just the City. The province is backing on its Urban Growth Centre's absorbing a lot of population and job growth.

Toronto has grown a lot, just like the province wanted. But there is no planning policy that can change that fact that people want to live where they want to live. As you know, it's the downtown area that has been booming, so has old Toronto, Midtown and North York. The suburbs, not so much.

Despite the wishes of politicians and city planners, designating Scarborough Centre as an urban growth area is not gonna do much if people don't want to live there. There's been a few development proposals over the years but they didn't sell too well, which is not surprising because lets be honest here, Scarborough Centre is not a beautiful place to live. Even if I had to live in Scarborough for whatever reason (e.g to be closer to my job), I would rather pick some apartment on Finch Ave instead.

 

[kEiThZ]

@salsa

There's a reason that midtown and even Yonge North has seen all the residential development it has. And that's transit....more specifically the minimal time spent on transit. I agree that the subway won't do much for SC in terms of development. But the LRT wouldn't have done much on this front either. If you look at where people want to live, it's largely a function of travel time to the core. With the subway, SC becomes about as attractive as Finch Station. The LRT and current SRT make SC about as attractive as basing at a hypothetical Hwy 7 station. Applying LRT to the SRT corridor is also a deviation from the "Avenues" concept. Most of the SRT corridor is either industrial or low density housing.

I'd argue that this extension is at least a lot more viable than what's being built to Vaughan at the moment. You have a better chance to getting development here than at Hwy 7.

 

[salsa]

@salsa

There's a reason that midtown and even Yonge North has seen all the residential development it has. And that's transit....more specifically the minimal time spent on transit. I agree that the subway won't do much for SC in terms of development. But the LRT wouldn't have done much on this front either. If you look at where people want to live, it's largely a function of travel time to the core. With the subway, SC becomes about as attractive as Finch Station. The LRT and current SRT make SC about as attractive as basing at a hypothetical Hwy 7 station. Applying LRT to the SRT corridor is also a deviation from the "Avenues" concept. Most of the SRT corridor is either industrial or low density housing.

I'd argue that this extension is at least a lot more viable than what's being built to Vaughan at the moment. You have a better chance to getting development here than at Hwy 7.

All fair points, however...

There's a reason that midtown and even Yonge North has seen all the residential development it has. And that's transit....more specifically the minimal time spent on transit.

It's not just about transit. Those places are also urban, walkable, attractive, liveable, pedestrian friendly, there are people on the streets, there are lots of restaurants, shopping and things to do, etc. There are other great neighbourhoods in this city that have seen plenty of development without having a subway station. If transit was everything, then there also wouldn't be stations like Warden, Wilson, Kennedy, Lawrence West or Downsview that remained undeveloped for decades.

 

[coffey1]

You'll have to refresh my memory and tell me how did the city tried to meet those targets...Most people would agree not much was done since then unless you're referring to that incomplete "stubway" and that ill conceived Kennedy station and neglected SRT....

Great way to meet ambitious targets with tools like theses...

Yes when I drive by Oakville, Mississauga, even Hamilton etc I see beautiful big signs attracting people to their attractions, like Waterfronts, parks etc. Drive down Kingston Rd & try to find Bluffers Park? No signs to the Rouge, we finally installed a few small Zoo signs a coupel years ago. There is minimal investment in promoting Scarborough in anyway shape or form when compared to the separate 905 Suburbs. This is really sad considering how much it has going for it in terms of location, parks & attractions

Also not smart that our Politicians have decided & continue to approve replacement of the old car lots & motels with low quality developments, & feel good low income housing. Not that im against low income housing. But it shouldn't be the feature on your main streets. Now go drive down Fairview rd in Burlington the same run down area is building Boutique building & will lay a great footprint for the future. Scarborough is a mix mash of whatever someone wanted to build. The lack of vision and follow thru on plans has had a dominoes affect in Scarborough & will not be easy to recover. You just don't see anything like this or close to this extent in the 905.

So when you don't invest in quality, spend the minimum for beautification & you don't provide quality transit into the City's transit system you can expect business & people to go where they feel there investment is safe.

Anyhow I hope this is a start of a new era. But all we have once again is a plan so who knows....

 

[LNahid2000]

Yes when I drive by Oakville, Mississauga, even Hamilton etc I see beautiful big signs attracting people to their attractions, like Waterfronts, parks etc. Drive down Kingston Rd & try to find Bluffers Park? No signs to the Rouge, we finally installed a few small Zoo signs a coupel years ago. There is minimal investment in promoting Scarborough in anyway shape or form when compared to the separate 905 Suburbs. This is really sad considering how much it has going for it in terms of location, parks & attractions

Also not smart that our Politicians have decided & continue to approve replacement of the old car lots & motels with low quality developments, & feel good low income housing. Not that im against low income housing. But it shouldn't be the feature on your main streets. Now go drive down Fairview rd in Burlington the same run down area is building Boutique building & will lay a great footprint for the future. Scarborough is a mix mash of whatever someone wanted to build. The lack of vision and follow thru on plans has had a dominoes affect in Scarborough & will not be easy to recover. You just don't see anything like this or close to this extent in the 905.

So when you don't invest in quality, spend the minimum for beautification & you don't provide quality transit into the City's transit system you can expect business & people to go where they feel there investment is safe.

Anyhow I hope this is a start of a new era. But all we have once again is a plan so who knows....

What does this have to do with the Scarborough RT replacement? Seems like the usual "us vs them" mentality from you.

 

[nfitz]

... we finally installed a few small Zoo signs a coupel years ago.

There's been signs - and I wouldn't call them small - on the 401 as long as I can remember - and I remember it opening.

So I presume all your points are equally fictional.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

There's been signs - and I wouldn't call them small - on the 401 as long as I can remember - and I remember it opening.

That's a dinky sign. It should be twice the current size!

 

[nfitz]

It's fine for the 401. I don't think you can miss the sign when your driving past on Meadowvale.

 

[kEiThZ]

Coffey is right about Kingston. Incredibly mismanaged. If you support avenue style development and transit oriented development, how could you not be mad about Kingston?

That said, there's no point dwelling on the past. Crosstown East and the SSE connection will change the nature of Scarborough. Will it turn SC into Yonge/Eg? No. But give it a decade after the subway comes. I'd bet SC will be a lot better than today.

 

[coffey1]

Toronto has grown a lot, just like the province wanted. But there is no planning policy that can change that fact that people want to live where they want to live. As you know, it's the downtown area that has been booming, so has old Toronto, Midtown and North York. The suburbs, not so much.


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So let me see. In your opinion North York is not a suburb? I guess when you have that many subway stops you lose the suburban title & attract investment.

 

[coffey1]

What does this have to do with the Scarborough RT replacement? Seems like the usual "us vs them" mentality from you.

The question was raised why Scarborough hasnt become a business hub. There are many reasons including transit. But in general its lack of Municipal interest & will to prioritize a plan to attract investment. The 905 City's do everything they can to make themselves individually attractive for business and investment. Scarborough is cast in Toronto's shadow and seems to have done the opposite. Transit is one of many reasons that has caused investors to turn there heads to the 905.

Not us vs. them. IMO there's just a lack political of vision & with so many differing voices int this City it's just easier to just focus from the inside out without growing, integrating, investing & rejuvenated the suburbs in a healthy manner

 

[UD2]

The question was raised why Scarborough hasnt become a business hub. There are many reasons including transit. But in general its lack of Municipal interest & will to prioritize a plan to attract investment. The 905 City's do everything they can to make themselves individually attractive for business and investment. Scarborough is cast in Toronto's shadow and seems to have done the opposite. Transit is one of many reasons that has caused investors to turn there heads to the 905.

Not us vs. them. IMO there's just a lack political of vision & with so many differing voices int this City it's just easier to just focus from the inside out without growing, integrating, investing & rejuvenated the suburbs in a healthy manner

North York Centre and consumers Rd at sheppard and 404 has plenty of transit of all modes, yet it too has lost the battle for commercial development to both downtown and the 905.

 

[coffey1]

North York Centre and consumers Rd at sheppard and 404 has plenty of transit of all modes, yet it too has lost the battle for commercial development to both downtown and the 905.

Valid point. North York is still seeing a lot of growth & investment tied to their transit system. Just not corporate investment that was just taken as a slam dunk. Why? Cost, size & type of land. Also partly because of the investment and pride these 905 City's take to remain attractive & sustain growth into the future. Toronto has a Golden Egg which is great. But it's also now very big and needs to focus on other areas individually with a greater attention to detail with a similar determination as the 905 Cities. Certainly not an easy task politically with so many voices battling to have there various needs heard.

The subways in North York, Etobicoke, & Scarborough will have the effectiveness & attractiveness of connecting Toronto's downtown which is a necessary start. But now the City needs to do more & possibly provide high enough tax breaks to intrigue some companies to invest out of the Golden basket downtown. Otherwise it certainly will fail

Will it happen? Who knows. Even the one stop SSE & SMLRT is just another conceptual plan.

 

[Anonymous2000]

North York Centre and consumers Rd at sheppard and 404 has plenty of transit of all modes, yet it too has lost the battle for commercial development to both downtown and the 905.

If I recall, the Sheppard subway was originally supposed to be built to Victoria Park. But unfortunately, it was scaled back to Don Mills. Perhaps because of a cost-savings measure by the Rae government in the early 90's. I also seem to recall during Miller's first term as mayor (2003-06), that there were plans to bring the Sheppard subway east to Victoria Park.

 

[ssiguy2]

If this is the plan for Scar it's a damn good one.!

What makes it even better is that everyone gets some of what they wanted so it's a political win-win. Everyone is getting more rapid transit with long thru route so there are far fewer transfers needed for long distance travel which was one of Miller's TC plan's biggest short comings. TC was so incredibly disjointed where as this superior system is very fluid and rider friendly................one of the things transit riders hate is transfers and this system gets rid of a lot of them., This plan is more of an integrated "system" as opposed to TC which seemed more like a bunch of different uncoordinated lines.

If there is one problem it is with the tunnel alignment. It does not have to be tunnelled or at least not as much as it is. They could simply reconfigure the big curve and just use the current RT route but I think a better option would be to use the RT route to the Hydro corridor and then take it NW to McCowan near Lawrence. The amount of money {to say nothing of time and disruption} saved would be huge and those savings thru trenching thru the Hydro corridor and at grade along the RT route could build a new station at McCowan & Lawrence to serve the area and especially SGH.

This entire plan from Pearson to UTS, Smart Tracks, and Danforth extension is logical, doable, affordable, and politically palatable for everyone. Build it!