Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[JSF-1]

^Likely because anything he will come up with will be stupid ideas that would be rightfully criticized. Subways to far flung areas which don't justify them and likely never will, and a distinct ignorance to the existence of GO because and I quote "They are not Subways". The word for today is "Superfluous"

 

[syn]

Problem is, if they want an LE station it has to be done now. The current plan makes 0 provisions for a station at Lawrenece. Its not like North York Centre which could be infilled because the line was shallow cut-and-cover. The SSE is deep bore tunnel nealry 20 floors below ground at Lawrence. Once its built there is no going back down there.

You're right.

Adding and removing stations is no small task. Given the consistently escalating costs, adding stations will add significant time and cost.

 

[OneCity]

Has he been "quite vocal"? I support adding a station or two to SSE, but imo the premier has been quite silent on any transit plan. With the exception of uploading of course. Guy talks about extending subways to Pickering and "rapid underground transit", but where's even the most basic of plans, or napkin maps, or anything? It's largely crickets.

What were you expecting thus far?

The current lines in design are ongoing as they would be under and admin. The PC's have also reiterated support of DRL, SSE & Yonge which is the meat of their plan. I'm sure once they get thru the details of the upload, and the budget is clear there may possibly be announcements for future subway extension designs which they have clearly hinted at and likely the financung details down the line for the current lines. FWLRT might squeak thru based on current progress but all future LRT should be punted back to the City.

This is what it is...

*Current subway plans will move forward
*Subway next phase plans like DRL long/Sheppard should hit design at some stage under this admin
*Subway next-next phase like Mississauga/Pickering should make for good opportunistic campaign rhetoric and be strategically used to make the extreme opposition go batty

 

[asher__jo]

Are they, or are the electorate demanding those things and getting upset when they can't be delivered?

I think that's a little like a parent taunting their child with candy and then punishing them for wanting too much. We need politicians with integrity that engage the public, and then maybe people will take better interest in politics. Bit of a chicken and egg problem.

 

[asher__jo]

It just has to be a level rough-in. On the Crosstown, they tunneled and then excavate down to create the stations. They can do the same with the extension. See link and link. Since they have to create emergency exits anyway, they can create the shoring for emergency exits and future stations at the same time.

That's a little like a situation of adding a station on the Canada Line in Vancouver. The idea was originally there to add one at W57th, but it's been found to be prohibitively expensive. Can it be done after the fact, yes. COV motion on future station

 

[raptor]

Congrats UTers!!!!! We made it to page 1000 with no shovels in the ground!!!!!!!

To be fair, Scarborough has had rapid transit since 1985. I don't buy the "not good enough" or "Scarborough deserves" arguments.
I could only wish I had a service such as the Scarborough RT where I live.

 

[BurlOak]

The current Premier has been quite vocal about restoring the 3 stops and we have a new Scarborough councillor McKelvie also advocating for the 3 stops to be put back in. Remember Tory voted in favour already for it to be designed so there will be no further chance for obstruction should Ford agree to reinstate the stop

I would say there's likely to be a lot of consideration for the Lawrence station in the coming months

It really has been quiet - too quiet.
I would guess that Ford will not release any plan before the upload is complete - because it would just give his opponents more fuel to complain about.
Maybe once Ford takes over, he can state how poorly the design is going and then go back to the drawing board to correct the design deficiencies. Others could be blamed (i.e. the 44 Ward Council) and Ford can not only fix the problems - he can also defer the major construction spending.

Better yet for Ford would be to scrap the Scarborough Subway and go with a complete separate line from STC to downtown. This would either be a branch of DRL, or a completely separate line following the Don Valley. Either way, it could be described as being similar to the combined Scarborough-Eglinton Crosstown - which was a Rob Ford idea, was found to be the best option by Metrolinx, and was suppressed due to politics by the Liberals. The only thing better for Ford than being able to blame the old City Council for the transit mess, is if he can blame the Liberals.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Danforth/Eglinton needs a station too.

One thing that works in favor of this project is that the subway is getting uploaded.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...s-part-of-upload-talks-city-manager-says.html

 

[nfitz]

Problem is, if they want an LE station it has to be done now. The current plan makes 0 provisions for a station at Lawrenece. Its not like North York Centre which could be infilled because the line was shallow cut-and-cover. The SSE is deep bore tunnel nealry 20 floors below ground at Lawrence. Once its built there is no going back down there.

Looking at the plan and profile of the tunnel in Exhibit 4-18l (page 102 of the PDF) of the 2017 EPR report the top of the tunnel at Lawrence is 135 metres above sea level (ASL) with ground surface about 157 metres ASL. That would be closer to 10 stories than 20 stories. Deep sure, but compare to some of the Relief line stations.

The new platforms for Pape station have a ground surface of 115 metres above the top of the new tunnel at 92 metres - which is not only the same depth, but the tunnel is designed as cut-and-cover (north of Cavell Avenue).

And Gerrard station has a ground surface of 90 metres above the top of (bored) tunnel at 54 metres above sea level. Which is significantly deeper.

Given the comparable depths, particularly for the DRL cut-and-cover construction at Danforth I'm not sure what in particular precludes technically installing a station at Lawrence East on the SSE years later. (other than the closure). The profile through Lawrence is relatively flat, certainly no more of a slope than proposed for some DRL stations - in fact, just north of Lawrence closer to the hospital, it looks very flat! Ideally the station would be built at the same time - but nothing precludes starting construction on the current schedule, and adding a project to at least rough in the station box, so as to avoid a lengthy future closure.

The text of the report clearly states on 36 (Section 4.2.2) that "The vertical and horizontal profile in the vicinity of McGowan Road and Lawrence Avenue East, will meet those required for the possible construction of a Lawrence East Station in the future".

Danforth/Eglinton needs a station too.

There's no mention I see in the text of the EPR report, but looking at the plan and profile, there's a relatively flat, straight section that looks suitable, from the intersection of Brimely and Eglinton, westward.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Looking at the plan and profile of the tunnel in Exhibit 4-18l (page 102 of the PDF) of the 2017 EPR report the top of the tunnel at Lawrence is 135 metres above sea level (ASL) with ground surface about 157 metres ASL. That would be closer to 10 stories than 20 stories. Deep sure, but compare to some of the Relief line stations.

The new platforms for Pape station have a ground surface of 115 metres above the top of the new tunnel at 92 metres - which is not only the same depth, but the tunnel is designed as cut-and-cover (north of Cavell Avenue).

And Gerrard station has a ground surface of 90 metres above the top of (bored) tunnel at 54 metres above sea level. Which is significantly deeper.

Given the comparable depths, particularly for the DRL cut-and-cover construction at Danforth I'm not sure what in particular precludes technically installing a station at Lawrence East on the SSE years later. (other than the closure). The profile through Lawrence is relatively flat, certainly no more of a slope than proposed for some DRL stations - in fact, just north of Lawrence closer to the hospital, it looks very flat! Ideally the station would be built at the same time - but nothing precludes starting construction on the current schedule, and adding a project to at least rough in the station box, so as to avoid a lengthy future closure.

The text of the report clearly states on 36 (Section 4.2.2) that "The vertical and horizontal profile in the vicinity of McGowan Road and Lawrence Avenue East, will meet those required for the possible construction of a Lawrence East Station in the future".

There's no mention I see in the text of the EPR report, but looking at the plan and profile, there's a relatively flat, straight section that looks suitable, from the intersection of Brimely and Eglinton, westward.

Missing these stations will hurt ridership. And why skip Lawrence with the hospital there?

 

[OneCity]

It really has been quiet - too quiet.
I would guess that Ford will not release any plan before the upload is complete - because it would just give his opponents more fuel to complain about.
Maybe once Ford takes over, he can state how poorly the design is going and then go back to the drawing board to correct the design deficiencies. Others could be blamed (i.e. the 44 Ward Council) and Ford can not only fix the problems - he can also defer the major construction spending.

Better yet for Ford would be to scrap the Scarborough Subway and go with a complete separate line from STC to downtown. This would either be a branch of DRL, or a completely separate line following the Don Valley. Either way, it could be described as being similar to the combined Scarborough-Eglinton Crosstown - which was a Rob Ford idea, was found to be the best option by Metrolinx, and was suppressed due to politics by the Liberals. The only thing better for Ford than being able to blame the old City Council for the transit mess, is if he can blame the Liberals.

Anything is possible. I'm not certain the support is there from voters or the City to start over, I expect a quick resolution. Going forward with the one stop and blaming others while initializing the Sheppard design or adding the stop(s) back in the SSE would be my guess at this stage.

Could be quiet until all the dust settles as I'm sure he wants to sell subway plan for Toronto/GTA as a whole. Keep in mind the designs continue during the silence.

The only bombshells that wouldn't shock me under this Admin is the currently funded LRT's being casualties. But from all indications thus far they seem to recognize both the Crosstown (East) and FWLRT is too far along to cancel without major financial repercussion. Still I wouldn't shocked me if it happens

 

[asher__jo]

Missing these stations will hurt ridership. And why skip Lawrence with the hospital there?

I definitely think there should be stations at Eglinton/Danforth and Lawrence (which line 2 would compete with RER/Smarttrack planned stop at Lawrence), but when this is already a grotesquely over-budget project that isn't really warranted having it as a one stop subway I think is the best cost/benefit compromise there is.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I definitely think there should be stations at Eglinton/Danforth and Lawrence (which line 2 would compete with RER/Smarttrack planned stop at Lawrence), but when this is already a grotesquely over-budget project that isn't really warranted having it as a one stop subway I think is the best cost/benefit compromise there is.

i agree but its clear that ford wants to build both sheppard and scarborough. that's the issue.

 

[Rainforest]

At this point, I'd rather see Lawrence East station added back, but with no change to the tunnel design if that's possible at all. Lawrence East station will cost more than it should have costed, but the overrun will make a small fraction of the total project cost.

Now, if Ford's real agenda is to delay the actual spending, then he might order a tunnel redesign and postpone the construction start. We'll see in a few months.

 

[Rainforest]

i agree but its clear that ford wants to build both sheppard and scarborough. that's the issue.

Surely he wants, but at the same time he wants to delay the spending. I wouldn't expect any activity on Sheppard in his first term, nor in his second term if he gets one.