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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

BurlOak said:
Gweed,

I thought you said a while ago that Metrolinx insider's thought the elevated ECLRT connected to the SRT was the best option. Is it the case that political interferance has existed since day 1 and we cannot be sure that the Transit City LRT plan is actually the best one?
Click to expand...

Transit City was a political plan from Day 1. It replaced a plan of suburban subway expansion with a plan for suburban LRT expansion, with specific emphasis on "priority areas". That by its very nature is political. It's no secret on here that I have never been a fan of Transit City. A lot of the design and technology choices frankly defy logic. I was hoping that through the endless debates that were held at council, that the transit master plan for the City would have at least come out a little bit improved, instead of just a wholesale adoption of what was in place before.

I suspect that the "best option" for Eglinton East was working within the context of the Metrolinx Master Agreement. The agreement just says there needs to be LRT on Eglinton East, it doesn't specify the design parameters. It was the best option for the limited box that they could work within, and even that change would have been a bold step.
 
If Rob Ford actually supports increasing taxes for the SRT replacement, it will be a major breakthrough in the debate. Suddenly everyone from all ends of the political spectrum, at least symbolically, will be in favour of taxes for transit.

Others have pointed out that it is easier to get public support when improvements to transit suddenly become visible which should be the case when Finch, Sheppard (not speaking of the SRT here) and Eglinton LRTs reach completion which should happen in 2020. From my interpretation of the debate about the SRT replacement the Liberals don't intend to let this distract them from completing Sheppard and Finch.

*If* metrolinx does a reasonable job of these LRT projects, the stage may be set for broader public support for transit expansion including DRL and a bigger LRT network. I want to add: I just came back from visiting LA and used the LRT there to get around. It, like Toronto's planned lines, stops at traffic lights which don't appear to be giving priority to the trains. All-in-all the system is pretty good, and in a suburban area on a right of way the speed was acceptable.
 
gweed123 said:
Transit City was a political plan from Day 1. It replaced a plan of suburban subway expansion with a plan for suburban LRT expansion, with specific emphasis on "priority areas". That by its very nature is political. It's no secret on here that I have never been a fan of Transit City. A lot of the design and technology choices frankly defy logic. I was hoping that through the endless debates that were held at council, that the transit master plan for the City would have at least come out a little bit improved, instead of just a wholesale adoption of what was in place before.

I suspect that the "best option" for Eglinton East was working within the context of the Metrolinx Master Agreement. The agreement just says there needs to be LRT on Eglinton East, it doesn't specify the design parameters. It was the best option for the limited box that they could work within, and even that change would have been a bold step.
Click to expand...
I don't feel transit city was political. I think it was just poorly though out. TC gave better coverage then many cities had at a lower cost. It was just poorly thought out.
 
calimehtar said:
If Rob Ford actually supports increasing taxes for the SRT replacement, it will be a major breakthrough in the debate. Suddenly everyone from all ends of the political spectrum, at least symbolically, will be in favour of taxes for transit.

Others have pointed out that it is easier to get public support when improvements to transit suddenly become visible which should be the case when Finch, Sheppard (not speaking of the SRT here) and Eglinton LRTs reach completion which should happen in 2020. From my interpretation of the debate about the SRT replacement the Liberals don't intend to let this distract them from completing Sheppard and Finch.

*If* metrolinx does a reasonable job of these LRT projects, the stage may be set for broader public support for transit expansion including DRL and a bigger LRT network. I want to add: I just came back from visiting LA and used the LRT there to get around. It, like Toronto's planned lines, stops at traffic lights which don't appear to be giving priority to the trains. All-in-all the system is pretty good, and in a suburban area on a right of way the speed was acceptable.
Click to expand...

Where's the "private sector" that was to build "subways, subways, subways", as Rob wanted, when they are needed now?
 
calimehtar:

If Rob Ford actually supports increasing taxes for the SRT replacement, it will be a major breakthrough in the debate. Suddenly everyone from all ends of the political spectrum, at least symbolically, will be in favour of taxes for transit.
Click to expand...

I think you overstate the impact of his support - at 0.25%, such an increase is pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things - it might actually be a detriment because the increase probably preempts discussion around new revenue tools, which is supposed to have GTA wide application.

AoD
 
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denfromoakvillemilton said:
I don't feel transit city was political. I think it was just poorly though out. TC gave better coverage then many cities had at a lower cost. It was just poorly thought out.
Click to expand...

It was political. In what universe would Sheppard East be priority #1 for the city unless you wanted to forestall all future suburban subway expansion?

Even the SRT replacement should have been a higher priority (and is for most Scarborough residents)...something council is only waking up to now.
 
Keithz:

Remember it's all tied to the whole priority neighbourhoods business - I doubt it is to preempt subways as a starting point but to give a piece of transit (vis-a-vis the Avenue ideal) to everyone.

AoD
 
calimehtar said:
Others have pointed out that it is easier to get public support when improvements to transit suddenly become visible which should be the case when Finch, Sheppard (not speaking of the SRT here) and Eglinton LRTs reach completion which should happen in 2020. From my interpretation of the debate about the SRT replacement the Liberals don't intend to let this distract them from completing Sheppard and Finch.
Click to expand...

I predict entirely the opposite scenario. The LRTs will save the average rider 10 minutes at most. When they realize that, there will be a huge backlash against paying taxes just to expand the LRT network, or you will get a huge push to further direct funds towards expansion of the subway network.

What transit geeks don't realize that is that speed during commutes is by far the number one priority for most suburban commuters. This is the ride that takes them the longest and something they do twice a day, five days a week. The LRTs don't do much for these trips. By the TTC's own admission, a rider from STC would save 11 mins traveling to Kennedy from Malvern with the Crosstown LRT. A subway extension to McCowan and Sheppard might save him nearly as much, but with substantially higher convenience (less transfers) which is what makes riders prefer this solution. Transit geeks simply don't think like average commuters. And neither do Metrolinx planners I would bet.

This is why I have long argued that if you want public support for taxes, priority #1 should be an S-Bahn type all-day GO REX network. When people see their commutes cut by one-third to one-half, they'll start ponying up. You might also see a real reduction in traffic as well.
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
Keithz:

Remember it's all tied to the whole priority neighbourhoods business - I doubt it is to preempt subways as a starting point but to give a piece of transit (vis-a-vis the Avenue ideal) to everyone.

AoD
Click to expand...

And that of course was a political exercise. Not necessarily thought out with malice.

However, Malvern had 3 lines targeted its way. The one with the most significant impact would have been the SRT replacement and extension. Why did they choose the SELRT to go first?
 
Keithz:

That's what I meant - that is political but not out of malice. As to priorities - I am fairly certain there are some internal discussions around phasing, funding envelope, buildability, visibility, etc.

AoD
 
kEiThZ said:
It was political. In what universe would Sheppard East be priority #1 for the city unless you wanted to forestall all future suburban subway expansion?

Even the SRT replacement should have been a higher priority (and is for most Scarborough residents)...something council is only waking up to now.
Click to expand...


Fine but even then I just believe as ssiguy and gweed say all the time, TC was just trying to do two jobs at once and failed at bothl
 
I'm going to suggest something which I am suggesting for the routing controversies for Viva here in York, which does share some parallels. Why not do both?

Both routes reach different areas, and both routes have their advantages. The LRT conversion better penetrates Scarborough Town Centre, Centennial College, and Malvern, while the subway creates better cohesiveness between Scarborough and the rest of the city and hits populated areas more directly.

As for cost, we could keep the ART technology in place to expand and simply order new trains. While in the long term it may be more expensive since there is a sole provider, in the short term it could be much cheaper which is important to get these projects off the ground.

Some brainstorming ideas could be to branch the subway at Kennedy between the two corridors, or converting the SRT into a busway where routes can split off at the end to reach various neighbourhoods
 
Just for my own clarity, what exactly does the city manager report recommend? A tax increase of 1.1% - 2.4% for each of three years (total increase: 3.33% - 7.37% after 3 years), or a tax increase of 1.1% - 2.4% phased in over 3 years? I have been assuming the former (as have a number of councilors based on their tweets), and I guess Rob Ford has been assuming the latter (countering with a number of 1% phased in over 4 years to arrive at .25% per year). Does anyone know with certainly what exactly we are talking about?
 
‘Wrong on so many levels’: Ford ally blasts Scarborough subway funding plan

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...-ally-blasts-scarborough-subway-funding-plan/


Ford ally Denzil Minnan-Wong on Tuesday blasted a preliminary funding plan to build a Scarborough subway, saying costs for the project would likely be at least $1-billion higher than forecast. “To go forward with this is wrong on so many different levels,†Councillor Minnan-Wong said. “Fiscal conservatives will have to turn in their membership cards.â€

.....
 
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