Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[steveintoronto]

Don't forget the Walkerton Water crisis. I'd toss in the recurring ~2000 through 2003 brownouts and blackout too (showing severe under-funding of the electrical generation).

I glanced at sixring's "air bus" when it first went up. Ahhh! Now I get it! "Airbus" scandal. The "Brownouts" are a whole discussion in themselves, as much to do with the distribution grid as it was generation capacity.

 

[sixrings]

Btw their mandate was that they werent liberals. That was their whole campaign. Transit was barely mentioned outside of subways to pickering.

 

[BurlOak]

Can we mention the air bus scandal, the filling in of eglinton west tunnel or the 407 sale forever if we have to keep hearing about a gas plant everyone was going to cancel for votes.

I guess you didn't read the links (or the quote). It was John Lorinc who brought up the "gas plant" reference.

 

[syn]

First of all Ford and Tory are in completely different categories.

Ford promised to cancel the on-street LRT and did. He did it very promptly to minimize any wasting of money. He agreed to work with the Provincial Liberals and found a compromise solution, which they found within a year (which would also later be found to be the best).

Tory promised to stick with the planned subway, which both the City and Province, supported. He argued that the cost of switch back and forth was wasteful.

So both of these men actually kept their promises from the mandates they were given.

The Gas Plant type scandal was from the Liberals.

1. After the Ford-McGuinty agreement to build the combined ECLRT/SRT, Metrolinx studied the proposal in detail.
2. In June 2012, Metrolinx concluded that this was the best option.
3. The Liberals would not release this to the public - meaning that City Council had to vote (in fall of 2012) on which transit proposal to proceed with, without this vital piece of information.
4. In winter 2013, Wynne's Liberals already started to sabotage the 3 month old agreement, and not with the solution that was analyzed to be the best, but with their own political plan.
5. The Liberals ran the summer by-election as the subway champions - again publicly going against the agreement they just signed and against the solution that Metrolinx had found to be best.
6. In fall of 2013, after all the dust had settled, they quietly released the June 2012 Metrolinx report after an FOI request. However, not after they had shifted the transit debate to a plan that would cost Billions more.

Anyone who hasn't read the in depth review by John Lorinc is not seeing the whole picture.

Did you not read my question?

When in 2010 did Wynne or Duguid bring up the Scarborough Subway?

Ford is the one who canceled Transit City. Ford canceled the Scarborough LRT.

His 'compromise' wasn't approved by council because it would've resulted in the entire transit budget being dedicated to one project.

The Liberals changed the plan years after Ford canceled transit expansion and the political tide had turned against LRTs.

Had Ford not been elected, Scarborough would have a new LRT right now.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Can we stop arguing over which politician is shittier, and instead, move Scarborough subway merits over to the correct thread and talk about current Scarborough subway news in this thread?

 

[sixrings]

the problem is that those who support ford and this subway are shi**ng all over the previous liberal government without acknowledging their own mistakes. In fact the fords are being praised for their efforts when they themselves have been part of the problem. Of course this is going to frustrate some people. All politicians lie and buy votes sometimes. We would be naive to believe other wise. Ford is just as likely to screw up transit as the last person was. As long as its a political wedge it gets more and more messed up.

 

[BurlOak]

the problem is that those who support ford and this subway are shi**ng all over the previous liberal government without acknowledging their own mistakes. In fact the fords are being praised for their efforts when they themselves have been part of the problem. Of course this is going to frustrate some people. All politicians lie and buy votes sometimes. We would be naive to believe other wise. Ford is just as likely to screw up transit as the last person was. As long as its a political wedge it gets more and more messed up.

• Ford big problem was he didn't know how to manage the politics of being mayor.
• Ford figured because he was mayor, Councillors would fall in line.
• Ford figured because he had a deal with the province, that Stinz (and TTC), and Province (Metrolinx) would proceed to implement it.
• Ford figured that the MOU had a statement that the Eglinton line could have elevated portions at Jane/Black Creek, Don Valley, and Kennedy - and so they would search for ways of finding cost efficiencies (so the money could be used for Sheppard). The "Don Valley" (since there are 2 branches of the river) could be thought of as a roughly a 4km segment (half the total length). In the end, only the Black Creek area became elevated).
• There were suggestions that elevated transit was being looked at, and there was not a single negative word from either Ford.
• Not achieving Council approval for the grade-separated Eglinton line was a political mistake of Ford.
• For the last 9 months of 2011, Ford carried on assuming that the other parties were working to implement his plan. Little did he know that as soon as the calendar would turn, Stintz would openly revolt against Ford. It likely took another year for him to realize how much the Liberals were involved as well.

The interesting thing now if whether Doug will try to resurrect the Rob Ford plan. It was both Rob and his election platform in 2014 during the mayoralty election. He has the evidence that it was the best plan. He has access to the evidence on how the Liberals messed up the transit file, and how they withheld information from City Council.
The only thing he doesn't have it time - since we have gone so far down this road that it may be too late to fix. If, as JSF-1 says, the solution is to blow up the Scarborough Subway, then the solution may lie in Eglinton as well. That is how Billions could be saved. At this stage, with the Scarborough route decided, the saving would be 100's of millions at best, which (as OneCity says) would be offset by delay costs.
Ford has acted pretty quickly on some other files, as brother Rob did in 2010/11. So I imagine we will learn something before the summer is over. Will Rob try to put his stamp on this Eglinton project, or will he say it's too late and focus on adding a stop or 2 onto the Scarborough subway. My guess is the latter, but I still wonder if he will try to do something about Eglinton - as his brother had tried before.

 

[sixrings]

It doesn't take long to cancel things. I can do that pretty quickly... its the building and finding new money which is constantly the problem. So instead we study, study, delay, delay, delay.... If that's all you want done then hire me please and worship me the same way as your idol Ford.

 

[syn]

Can we stop arguing over which politician is shittier, and instead, move Scarborough subway merits over to the correct thread and talk about current Scarborough subway news in this thread?

Like it or not, the merits of a three stop plan vs a one stop plan, cost issues, timelines and feasibility are all relevant to this thread.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Like it or not, the merits of a three stop plan vs a one stop plan, cost issues, timelines and feasibility are all relevant to this thread.

That's fine, but that's not being argued. Currently, it's a political shitshow of Ford and Liberal praise. If we want to debate the merits of a brimley, Lawrence east, and Sheppard stop, please do so. I'm eager to hear what people have to say.

 

[sixrings]

I haven't heard much liberal praise. As someone who typically votes liberal I am ashamed of how they kept flip flopping on their transit priorities. I voted NDP by the way. The praise is coming in for Ford which hasn't done anything yet as premier and did nothing as mayor except sell hopes and dreams.

 

[muller877]

That's fine, but that's not being argued. Currently, it's a political shitshow of Ford and Liberal praise. If we want to debate the merits of a brimley, Lawrence east, and Sheppard stop, please do so. I'm eager to hear what people have to say.

It all depends on the cities desired streetscape for the low-rise industrial areas south of STC. If they want to create a medium to dense mixed used community in this area by all means they should look at transit alternatives. If they want to keep in low-rise industrial with low-rise residential beside it then it should not receive any transit.

 

[Rainforest]

The total volume of transit riders is more dependent on the total population of the area than on the population density. Scarborough is mostly low-density, but because of its huge size, it produces substantial amount of riders that use feeder bus routes to reach the subway.

The goal of extending the subway is to shorten the commute for those riders. If we can increase density as a by-product, that's great; but density is not a prerequisite.

 

[OneCity]

The total volume of transit riders is more dependent on the total population of the area than on the population density. Scarborough is mostly low-density, but because of its huge size, it produces substantial amount of riders that use feeder bus routes to reach the subway.

The goal of extending the subway is to shorten the commute for those riders. If we can increase density as a by-product, that's great; but density is not a prerequisite.

There was very little density for the vast majority of the current subway network when they were built. Id argue the density surrounding the McCowan corridor be it high or medium is greater than most current stops during their conception and even many that exist today. I was thinking this something similar walking up to Kipling station today and looking at the new density growing up that had never existed pre subway at both Kipling and the old fruit markets of Islington.

If McCowan goes forward which I tend to expect I think it would be short sighted not to add stops at Eglinton/Danforth and Lawrence. The Eglinton stop while no at the GO station is an a very central are that can be redeveloped on the irregular intersection with about 8 corners surrounding Eglinton/ Danforth and Eglinton/Brimley. Really doesn't get a much better template and while i get the Eglinton East LRT and proximity to Kennedy I still think would be a shame to pass over in the bigger picture. Lawrence has the Scarborough general hospital which in itself make sense and while one corner may be hard to develop similar to Leslie. There is a lot of medium to hig density all the way east thru Cederebrae thru to Kingston-Galloway and good potential to the West with some duplex/triplex building that can be re-developed similar to whats happening around Lawrence West station

When some posters say this is the wrong corridor I can only agree it was wrong in terms of the least cost effective due to the geological challenges, but without a doubt it by far leave the best legacy for the future being far more central, walkable and developable. Far greater than the RT rail corridor

 

[JSF-1]

There really isn't much development potential for McCowan and Lawrence. Only the south side of the intersection has any sort of potential and even then you are not going to fit much there. Lawrence isn't really a density friendly road until Markham Road.