Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

How about we find an exit point on Eglinton East and bring it above ground.

I would consider that OK, but I don't live there. Let's see what the locals think.

 

[raptor]

The current proposal as we know it is dead. With GdB retracting his support, and Ford opposition (or rather, support for 3 stop extension), it has no chance no matter what it will cost.

 

[BurlOak]

How about we find an exit point on Eglinton East and bring it above ground. Same with Victoria Park/ Sheppard and Sheppard East.

I did the math a while ago. The tracks need to go from horizontal underground, about 6m below surface, to gradually inclined upwards, and then gradually inclined downards until it is horizontal again.
To be at-grade, it has to go from 6m below grade to at grade - this 6m change would take about 300 to 400m.
To be elevated, it has to go from 6m below grade to 8m above grade (5.5m clearance and 2.5m for the supporting beams of the elevated structure) - this 14m change would take 500 to 600m.
Thus, for this length, no traffic can go below the tracks (i.e. no through streets, no left turns).

This is too much. Let's see how Doug will fix this.

It seems like it was the Liberal goal to screw things up so badly that even Ford could not fix it. (I imagine there are some who will say that this is a negative comment about Ford).

The current proposal as we know it is dead. With GdB retracting his support, and Ford opposition (or rather, support for 3 stop extension), it has no chance no matter what it will cost.

Did GDB retract his support ?

 

[Rainforest]

It seems like it was the Liberal goal to screw things up so badly that even Ford could not fix it. (I imagine there are some who will say that this is a negative comment about Ford).

I don't care much about Ford, either way. But, the things aren't screwed up too badly. Multiple options to make this subway extension both more affordable and more useful are available. If TTC and Metrolinx were too scared (of minor hiccups and objections) to explore those options, that doesn't mean they are gone. Technically they are still available.

 

[sixrings]

If ford can't fix it no one can

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Ford’s gonna demand it be three stops. That’ll add another several years of study. The price will be stupid expensive. The next government will engage in their own meddling, delaying things even longer. They’ll be a disaster on the crumbling RT. rinse and repeat.

 

[JSF-1]

Such is life in Scarborough. Amazing to think all of this could have been avoided if the Province kept there nose out of it back in the 70's/80's

 

[raptor]

Ford’s gonna demand it be three stops. That’ll add another several years of study. The price will be stupid expensive. The next government will engage in their own meddling, delaying things even longer. They’ll be a disaster on the crumbling RT. rinse and repeat.

The people of Scarborough have only themselves to blame, for electing such great city councilors

 

[Rainforest]

Ford’s gonna demand it be three stops. That’ll add another several years of study. The price will be stupid expensive. The next government will engage in their own meddling, delaying things even longer. They’ll be a disaster on the crumbling RT. rinse and repeat.

He didn't say which stops. If he adds Lawrence East and Brimley / Eglinton, but no Sheppard, it will take modest extra funding and a modest delay.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Its possible that he'll demand an expedited review to find areas of savings along this route and above ground options to add the stops. Not sure the savings will be that significant unless he quashes the underground bus terminal. I highly doubt he will risk major delays given the urgency to move forward and who the voters this line is being built for.

If this was at a different stage say 2010, or even 2014 when he thinly lost the Mayors seat and what now cost us the more cost effective RT corridor with Smarttrack being introduced then surely he would have been open finding significant saving to better connect Scarborough Centre. Too much time has already been wasted here. Remember these are part of his strong supporters in Toronto and he was clear repeatedly for decades to better and all Provincial election clear that their party would deliver the subway and add stops. Hard to believe he's going to tell his voters were starting over to delay another 5-10 years That will go against delivering and affect his support next term if things backtrack. Council blew the opportunity to better multiple times pre and post Transit City, and focus now should be on designing the Sheppard subway in the most economical manner.

Let's be clear. If there cannot be a compromise on design, this thing will not get built and Scarborough will get nothing.

Considering the current extension is almost entirely a political exercise, don't you think they would've found some way to reduce the cost already if it were possible?

Does Tory really want to be one-upped by Ford, or anyone else?

Can Ford be trusted with anything transit related? Him and his late brother had a habit of promising the world, giving ridiculously low estimates and then not delivering anything.

This is the same person who thinks they need to expand the subway to Pickering lol.

This can be solved by coming above ground on Eglinton East. It is only reaching this crisis point because of the insistence that the subway be underground.

I would consider that OK, but I don't live there. Let's see what the locals think.

I think if you told them two subways above ground vs one underground, they would choose the two. But again, if we can't compromise on design, don't build it.

I did the math a while ago. The tracks need to go from horizontal underground, about 6m below surface, to gradually inclined upwards, and then gradually inclined downards until it is horizontal again.
To be at-grade, it has to go from 6m below grade to at grade - this 6m change would take about 300 to 400m.
To be elevated, it has to go from 6m below grade to 8m above grade (5.5m clearance and 2.5m for the supporting beams of the elevated structure) - this 14m change would take 500 to 600m.
Thus, for this length, no traffic can go below the tracks (i.e. no through streets, no left turns).

It seems like it was the Liberal goal to screw things up so badly that even Ford could not fix it. (I imagine there are some who will say that this is a negative comment about Ford).

Did GDB retract his support ?

You always say above ground can't be done, but how can you justify the current cost? The project needs to change.

 

[BurlOak]

You always say above ground can't be done, but how can you justify the current cost? The project needs to change.

It's not me - it's physics.
Here are some options:

1. Cut-and-cover along Eglinton and up McCowan. At Highland Creek (north of Lawrence), use an Old Mill style station.
2. Cut-and-cover along Eglinton and up Midland. Switch to hydro corridor and become at grade (maybe Summerhill style trench). Become elevated between Brimley and McCowan, then elevated on McCowan up to STC.
3. Revert to the SRT alignment for the subway (Glen Murray alignment).
4. Have a whole new (LRT / mini metro / SkyTrain) elevated line from downtown up Don Valley to Hydro Corridor up to join SRT.
5. Have a whole new (LRT / mini metro / SkyTrain) elevated line from downtown up Don Valley to Hydro Corridor up to Midland and then up to existing SRT just north of Ellesmere.
6. Elevate the entire ECLRT from Brentcliffe to Kennedy and connect to the SRT.

Of course it would have been so much easier if this was attempted 4 years ago.

 

[OneCity]

Let's be clear. If there cannot be a compromise on design, this thing will not get built and Scarborough will get nothing.
.

Saying Scarborough will get nothing is exaggerative fear mongering, when the truth is if any is getting any area of the City is going to see significant investment next its Central Scarborough, moreso under this admin of Tory and Ford. Compromise time was 4-8 years ago and council simply couldn't be bothered to get off the poorly designed transfer LRT plan. Now its past time to get something built on this line and the easiest compromise is also now in conflict with GO RER and Torys baby in Smarttrack. So reasonable options to find savings are quite limited. Sadly a few are finally waking up to the reality the transfer plan is never coming back and are now warming up to start working a compromise... Kinda late?

As I said I wouldn't doubt if Doug requests an expedited study to look for efficiencies within this subway alignment. Hope he finds some, but inevitably delivering the subway is a clear part of his mandate, as well as getting Sheppard in design. The endless desire by some outside Scarborough politicians to cut corners connecting Scarborough Centre may have actually lead us to achieve the most expensive route and polar opposite result of they intended with the lack of attention to detail. There really is likely not much saving starting over with another plan and the only guarantee is that will backlog transit building further in this City. We should be focusing on Sheppards details to ensure it can built in the most economic manner that connects directly to SCC from the current Sheppard line.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

It's not me - it's physics.
Here are some options:

1. Cut-and-cover along Eglinton and up McCowan. At Highland Creek (north of Lawrence), use an Old Mill style station.
2. Cut-and-cover along Eglinton and up Midland. Switch to hydro corridor and become at grade (maybe Summerhill style trench). Become elevated between Brimley and McCowan, then elevated on McCowan up to STC.
3. Revert to the SRT alignment for the subway (Glen Murray alignment).
4. Have a whole new (LRT / mini metro / SkyTrain) elevated line from downtown up Don Valley to Hydro Corridor up to join SRT.
5. Have a whole new (LRT / mini metro / SkyTrain) elevated line from downtown up Don Valley to Hydro Corridor up to Midland and then up to existing SRT just north of Ellesmere.
6. Elevate the entire ECLRT from Brentcliffe to Kennedy and connect to the SRT.

Of course it would have been so much easier if this was attempted 4 years ago.

Option 2 is fine and would save a ton of money. Again, something has to give here. The current plan is ridiculous, considering not even Ford supports it.

Saying Scarborough will get nothing is exaggerative fear mongering, when the truth is if any is getting any area of the City is going to see significant investment next its Central Scarborough, moreso under this admin of Tory and Ford. Compromise time was 4-8 years ago and council simply couldn't be bothered to get off the poorly designed transfer LRT plan. Now its past time to get something built on this line and the easiest compromise is also now in conflict with GO RER and Torys baby in Smarttrack. So reasonable options to find savings are quite limited. Sadly a few are finally waking up to the reality the transfer plan is never coming back and are now warming up to start working a compromise... Kinda late?

As I said I wouldn't doubt if Doug requests an expedited study to look for efficiencies within this subway alignment. Hope he finds some, but inevitably delivering the subway is a clear part of his mandate, as well as getting Sheppard in design. The endless desire by some outside Scarborough politicians to cut corners connecting Scarborough Centre may have actually lead us to achieve the most expensive route and polar opposite result of they intended with the lack of attention to detail. There really is likely not much saving starting over with another plan and the only guarantee is that will backlog transit building further in this City. We should be focusing on Sheppards details to ensure it can built in the most economic manner that connects directly to SCC from the current Sheppard line.

And what will he tell people in Sudbury and London? It's subway or nothing and right now we are leaning closer to nothing because of cost. There is nothing wrong with elevated subways. Sheppard can come out at Vic Park and Bloor at Midland or McCowan? That or nothing (and LRT in 2040) should be the options. And do you only post in the Scarborough subway threads? Do you ever talk about GO transit?

 

[BurlOak]

Saying Scarborough will get nothing is exaggerative fear mongering, when the truth is if any is getting any area of the City is going to see significant investment next its Central Scarborough, moreso under this admin of Tory and Ford. Compromise time was 4-8 years ago and council simply couldn't be bothered to get off the poorly designed transfer LRT plan. Now its past time to get something built on this line and the easiest compromise is also now in conflict with GO RER and Torys baby in Smarttrack. So reasonable options to find savings are quite limited. Sadly a few are finally waking up to the reality the transfer plan is never coming back and are now warming up to start working a compromise... Kinda late?

As I said I wouldn't doubt if Doug requests an expedited study to look for efficiencies within this subway alignment. Hope he finds some, but inevitably delivering the subway is a clear part of his mandate, as well as getting Sheppard in design. The endless desire by some outside Scarborough politicians to cut corners connecting Scarborough Centre may have actually lead us to achieve the most expensive route and polar opposite result of they intended with the lack of attention to detail. There really is likely not much saving starting over with another plan and the only guarantee is that will backlog transit building further in this City. We should be focusing on Sheppards details to ensure it can built in the most economic manner that connects directly to SCC from the current Sheppard line.

OneCity is 100% right.
The time to come up with a better solution was 2012 to 2014.

1. Council defeated the Ford comprimise plan in the spring of 2012.
2. In the summer, Stintz presents the OneCity transit plan which is quickly defeated.
3. In the fall, the Transit City deal is signed to go forward with the transfer SLRT.
4. In the winter 2013, Murray is appointed MTO minister and immediately begins to sabotage the agreement.
5. In spring 2013, Murray public mentions he is open to cancelling the TC deal.
6. In the summer of 2013, the Liberals run as "subway champions". After spending $1B to buy 4 seats in Oakville and Burlington, they are now planning on spending a similar amount on a single Scarborough seat.
7. The Liberals win that by-election, and the subsequent provincial election in 2014. Essentially, the people of Toronto rewarded the Liberals for all their games and basically agreed to give a blank check for a transit line that is designed based 100% on politics.

This all started with Council ignoring transit needs and doing everything possible to defeat Ford. It ended with the Liberals doing everything possible to gain political advantage with the subway. John Tory was someone who came in after it was almost too late. The Liberals had just retrieved a majority so he had no political power to correct the errors that were handed to him. Now that the power balanced has shifted to a more intelligent view - it is too late since the bad decisions have progressed to a point of no return.

 

[micheal_can]

Option 2 is fine and would save a ton of money. Again, something has to give here. The current plan is ridiculous, considering not even Ford supports it.
And what will he tell people in Sudbury and London? It's subway or nothing and right now we are leaning closer to nothing because of cost. There is nothing wrong with elevated subways. Sheppard can come out at Vic Park and Bloor at Midland or McCowan? That or nothing (and LRT in 2040) should be the options. And do you only post in the Scarborough subway threads? Do you ever talk about GO transit?

I live in Sudbury. We are getting BRT or LRT? AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!