News   Jul 12, 2024
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News   Jul 12, 2024
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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

There are other issues with the LRT as well; the corridor needs to be used for RER, so any LRT would actually have to be built above grade, which is almost as much as a subway.

It would probably be billions less, for 7 times the number of stops and far greater access.

There is never any kind of positive news about the SSE. Every single time they've announced something it's either fewer stops or a cost increase, none of which have been scrutinized by elected officials.
 
It would probably be billions less, for 7 times the number of stops and far greater access.

There is never any kind of positive news about the SSE. Every single time they've announced something it's either fewer stops or a cost increase, none of which have been scrutinized by elected officials.

Ugh, misinformation. The LRT plan is only a net gain of two new stations (Centennial and Sheppard East), but Ellesmere would be gone per the LRT proposal; so it works out to the same number of new stations as the subway plan.

For the added expenses being suggested by planners here; they need to revisit adding back in the Lawrence East stop and give serious consideration to a station at Brimley and Eglinton.
 
@Hopkins23, Agreed! There are many benefits to the subway. Unfortunately, you have the Toronto Star constantly badgering it. There has got to be an article on this every month and always with altruistic pretensions! If they would focus the same energy on the Relief Line, maybe there could have some meaningful impact.

Cancelling SSE now will have a number of negative consequences (time lost to re-design and procurement to switch back to LRT (there is not magic pill here), interface issues with RER, shutting down existing SRT service for 3+ years, lengthening bus loop closure and other station impacts at Kennedy, ...). For someone who works in transit, this whole focus on cost estimates is a red herring, as such estimates are open to bias and interpretation. Only towards the latter stages of design, when some level of design certainty has been achieved, will cost estimates have some meaning to the general public and SSE is not there yet. Also re: hand sketches, it is not uncommon to hand sketch ideas out; it is usually a first step before transmitting to CADD for validation/valuation. Gosh...the Star will jump on anything!
 
Ugh, misinformation. The LRT plan is only a net gain of two new stations (Centennial and Sheppard East), but Ellesmere would be gone per the LRT proposal; so it works out to the same number of new stations as the subway plan.

For the added expenses being suggested by planners here; they need to revisit adding back in the Lawrence East stop and give serious consideration to a station at Brimley and Eglinton.

The LRT would have 7 stops. The SSE would have one added.

Please stop spreading misinformation.
 
The LRT would have 7 stops.

Subway + RER would have Lawrence East and Scarborough Centre. Neither would have Ellesmere. There are three extra stops under the LRT proposal: Midland (which has extremely low usage), Centennial College and Sheppard East.
 
The LRT would have 7 stops. The SSE would have one added.

Please stop spreading misinformation.
I think what's trying to be said is that the original plan adds 2 stations to status quo but removes 1, so 1 new stop in total. On the other hand, the current subway plan adds 0 new stops to the status quo and removes 4 stops. So theoretically it is a loss of 4 stops, while getting a single upgraded stop. However, if you're thinking about this with the SRT gone 100% and starting with a blank slate, then yes the LRT adds 6 stops (Kennedy excluded) while the SSE adds 1 stop.
 
The LRT would have 7 stops. The SSE would have one added.

Please stop spreading misinformation.

What misinformation? Five of the stops already exist! You're acting as though we're building 7 brand new stops less the price of one subway extension. Ellesmere's getting eliminated and Kennedy shouldn't really be counted twice. So really only Lawrence East, Midland, Scarborough Centre and McCowan are the stations involved here, with the addition of Centennial and Sheppard East. That's 6!

Midland and McCowan combined don't see 10,000 daily alightings. It's not enough to say build LRT for the sake of building LRT. It has to make sense! We could lose those stations and no one would miss them. So that brings us right back to just Lawrence East and the Town Centre.

A future phase of the Bloor-Danforth could always veer northeast and route into Malvern someday via the exact elevated guideway the S(L)RT was going to route. What's critical here is getting the subway at least to the point of the Town Centre.

We can improve on the plan since the cost is escalating anyway and advocate for the addition of two more stops at Eglinton-Brimley and Lawrence-McCowan that would carry more ridership traffic than the entire S(L)RT line you're so eager to see built instead. If you want to make ~$1 billion cost to add those stations in hold you back from seeing that we can make the best of a tenuous situation, that's not my problem.
 
I would also add that Ellesmere too is a limited use stop in the current system. And that McCowan and STC basically serve the same catchment area (with Midland, served by the 57 Midland bus, in relative short proximity to STC as well). Lawrence East will be addressed by Smart Track. So the proposed system addresses losses to existing. In fact, I would say that SSE reduces overall operations and maintenance costs (something not considered in cost estimates at this stage) compared to the SRT and even new LRT.
 
I would also add that Ellesmere too is a limited use stop in the current system. And that McCowan and STC basically serve the same catchment area (with Midland, served by the 57 Midland bus, in relative short proximity to STC as well). Lawrence East will be addressed by Smart Track. So the proposed system addresses losses to existing. In fact, I would say that SSE reduces overall operations and maintenance costs (something not considered in cost estimates at this stage) compared to the SRT and even new LRT.
IMO, McCowan Station should be replaced with a station at Bellamy and Ellesmere Station should just go away if the LRT is ever rechosen.
 
There should be a Star investigation into why SSE costs so much, and how that came to be. No, not the political process stuff. I mean the engineering and alignment. I for one cast serious questions into the process. One hundred feet deep to cross a tiny valley (thus ruling out any Lawrence station)? C'mon gimme a break. If we are to unequivocally accept that there is zero way of crossing a few ditches sensibly, then why was that alignment chosen? There were numerous alignments, simply go back to another one that doesn't involve ridiculous depths.

The City is trying to state as fact that the absolute *only* way to bring Line 2 to SC is the option before us, and people believe it. And that imo is bs.
 
What misinformation? Five of the stops already exist! You're acting as though we're building 7 brand new stops less the price of one subway extension. Ellesmere's getting eliminated and Kennedy shouldn't really be counted twice. So really only Lawrence East, Midland, Scarborough Centre and McCowan are the stations involved here, with the addition of Centennial and Sheppard East. That's 6!

Midland and McCowan combined don't see 10,000 daily alightings. It's not enough to say build LRT for the sake of building LRT. It has to make sense! We could lose those stations and no one would miss them. So that brings us right back to just Lawrence East and the Town Centre.

A future phase of the Bloor-Danforth could always veer northeast and route into Malvern someday via the exact elevated guideway the S(L)RT was going to route. What's critical here is getting the subway at least to the point of the Town Centre.

We can improve on the plan since the cost is escalating anyway and advocate for the addition of two more stops at Eglinton-Brimley and Lawrence-McCowan that would carry more ridership traffic than the entire S(L)RT line you're so eager to see built instead. If you want to make ~$1 billion cost to add those stations in hold you back from seeing that we can make the best of a tenuous situation, that's not my problem.

The SSE will see the removal of the current RT Line. All of the stops currently between Kennedy and STC will be eliminated, along with McCowan. There also won't be any stops further north.
 
I would also add that Ellesmere too is a limited use stop in the current system. And that McCowan and STC basically serve the same catchment area (with Midland, served by the 57 Midland bus, in relative short proximity to STC as well). Lawrence East will be addressed by Smart Track. So the proposed system addresses losses to existing. In fact, I would say that SSE reduces overall operations and maintenance costs (something not considered in cost estimates at this stage) compared to the SRT and even new LRT.
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It would most likely be less expensive, especially since the LRT is being extended. Here's why:
Operations
Since rolling stock facilities need to be built for the SLRT that adds to costs (either that, or deadhead trains all the way to Mt Dennis, and that's extremely inefficient). The presence of a new yard will increase operating costs in itself, so that's already a huge bill to swallow.

Traction
Contrary to what I believed earlier, subway traction power requirements are exactly the same as what would be needed for as the proposed Scarborough line. Here's why: A typical Flexity streetcar weighs 48 Tonnes, and 4 Flexities are supposed to make up one Scarborough LRT Train. Compare this to a 6-car Toronto Rocket train: 205 Tonnes. They are almost exactly the same mass. If we assume passenger loads are the same for each mode of transit, their effects are negligible. According to the theory of the conservation of energy, Work (The total amount of power required across a distance) is based on the force required to move the object times the distance. Since the distance would be longer on the LRT line, and the force required to move the LRT and subways would be the same for both vehicles (F=ma=(~200,000kg)(acceleration of train required m/s^2)), traction costs would, in fact, be greater on the LRT line then they would be on the subway line since the distances are greater on the LRT line if we assume the terrain is flat. Note, work calculations are actually a lot more complicated than this because of circular energies of the wheels, but doing advanced integration here would probably get me banned.

However, (skip this if don't give a shit about physics) this is only assuming no inclines are present in either line, and we know for a fact that the depth of the subway is to decrease significantly over the course of the SSE. For every train travelling to Kennedy, they will also have to travel up an incline. For this, we have to add the initial work required to move the train along the line to the work required to move the train up. This can be represented by an equation for potential energy, U=mgh. If the train is to have to move up an incline of 20m, 40 megajoules of extra power are required. If this incline occurs over 2 minutes of travel time, 330 extra kilowatts of power are required to move that train up the incline. This is a difference of 550 amps of power per train. This is only going up the incline though. Going down the incline, the train does negative work to travel deeper underground. Since regenerative braking gives back about 30-50% of the 40 megajoules of energy required to move the train up the hill, the net energy difference as a result of this incline is between 20 and 28 megajoules per train. Let it be known, the terrain for the SLRT is not very flat, and the line goes up and down inclines as it switches from grade level to elevated.

Operators
Operators are the highest cost of a line. Since more drivers will be required to move the smaller trains to the STC, those operation costs increase
Since the line is a new standalone line with a different technology, it must have different route planners and different operation executives. These are the most expensive employees to pay, so operation costs there are significantly higher. Compare this to that of the Bloor Danforth line, where fewer operators are required to run trains, they are already employees of the TTC, and executives are already running a line and at worst will need small raises.

Maintenance (Trains)
Since LRVs have a statistically higher rate between breakdowns (15K km vs 600K km, so LRVs are 40 times as likely to break down as heavy rail vehicles), they require more deadheading and more Mantainence staff. These maintenance staff would also have to be based out of the new yard, or trains would require significant deadheading, meaning costs would increase no matter where maintenance takes place. Lost revenue also has to be considered when trains are taken out of service.

Maintenace (Infrastructure)
This one's hard to say, since the LRV would be elevated and longer than the subway. On one hand, concrete liners aren't an issue. On the other, pantograph carbons, & pantograph lines wear out quickly and need replacement more often than third rails etc. The line is also aboveground, adding to operation costs since they are susceptible to the elements.

Inefficiencies
It will take longer to take the LRT from Kennedy to the STC (where everyone travels to anyways). This must be accounted for with lost revenue. Factor in a transfer and the line pays for itself after 60 years. You must also factor in delays associated with running a line outside, where it is at the mercy of the weather. However, when you consider potential bloor danforth delays, this can potentially be ignored depending on future operation of the line.
 

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