News   Jul 12, 2024
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News   Jul 12, 2024
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News   Jul 12, 2024
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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

If gets a look at the bill and balks, what happens? Either both sheppard and danforth should be built or none at all, let's stop the games.
With DRL long progressing and RER on Stouffville likely to happen sooner than this line 2 extension's completion, sacrificing this for a line 4 extension is more beneficial in terms of long term network connectivity. Just ask, how many of those who currently use line 3 have their destinations along line 2?
 
There should be a Star investigation into why SSE costs so much, and how that came to be. No, not the political process stuff. I mean the engineering and alignment. I for one cast serious questions into the process. One hundred feet deep to cross a tiny valley (thus ruling out any Lawrence station)? C'mon gimme a break. If we are to unequivocally accept that there is zero way of crossing a few ditches sensibly, then why was that alignment chosen? There were numerous alignments, simply go back to another one that doesn't involve ridiculous depths.

The City is trying to state as fact that the absolute *only* way to bring Line 2 to SC is the option before us, and people believe it. And that imo is bs.

On the topic of Alignment I have always been against the McCowan Alignment, to me it really is one of the route causes for the SSE being as expensive as it is. The Highland Creek is pretty much right at Lawrence here and the Frank Fubert Woods and the condos around STC are an insurmountable obstacle that hinder the extension. On the other hand I have always favored Brimley as the superior alignment since the Highland Creek is further north here an the area around STC is nothing but empty fields, parking lots, and industrial lands; which would make construction far easier. I recall back during the planning phase planners found the McCowan and Brimley were both equally good options, yet they went with the worst one in my opinion. Regardless of whether it is McCowan or Brimley, STC is the only place on the extension that has development potential and both alignments terminate there.
 
if theyre seriously going to stop this now they might as well spend the money on refurbing the existing line and getting new trains. This has seriously gone way too far
and even if theyre going to jump to at grade LRT it would be billions of dollars as well. The original SRT was good enough, and IIRC the costs for renovating the stations to fit new
trains would be cheaper that all the other options. Its only because of the "eyesore" naysayers that got the whole subway debacle started to begin with.
I agree with this only because Van cover seems to be just fine using skytrain as their primary mode.
With DRL long progressing and RER on Stouffville likely to happen sooner than this line 2 extension's completion, sacrificing this for a line 4 extension is more beneficial in terms of long term network connectivity. Just ask, how many of those who currently use line 3 have their destinations along line 2?
True but one of the reasons this whole project was started so they could force Sheppard east down the line.
 
Let's stop the stoppers :)

I know, right? Of all the things to go SJW activist over, cancelling a subway project that'll benefit millions of lives to resurrect the failed SRT corridor transit and inane transfer at Kennedy Stn just to save a billion dollars is face-palm levels of dumb.
 
I know, right? Of all the things to go SJW activist over, cancelling a subway project that'll benefit millions of lives to resurrect the failed SRT corridor transit and inane transfer at Kennedy Stn just to save a billion dollars is face-palm levels of dumb.

LOL

Which millions of lives will the SSE benefit?
 
'

It would most likely be less expensive, especially since the LRT is being extended. Here's why:
Operations
Since rolling stock facilities need to be built for the SLRT that adds to costs (either that, or deadhead trains all the way to Mt Dennis, and that's extremely inefficient). The presence of a new yard will increase operating costs in itself, so that's already a huge bill to swallow.

Traction
Contrary to what I believed earlier, subway traction power requirements are exactly the same as what would be needed for as the proposed Scarborough line. Here's why: A typical Flexity streetcar weighs 48 Tonnes, and 4 Flexities are supposed to make up one Scarborough LRT Train. Compare this to a 6-car Toronto Rocket train: 205 Tonnes. They are almost exactly the same mass. If we assume passenger loads are the same for each mode of transit, their effects are negligible. According to the theory of the conservation of energy, Work (The total amount of power required across a distance) is based on the force required to move the object times the distance. Since the distance would be longer on the LRT line, and the force required to move the LRT and subways would be the same for both vehicles (F=ma=(~200,000kg)(acceleration of train required m/s^2)), traction costs would, in fact, be greater on the LRT line then they would be on the subway line since the distances are greater on the LRT line if we assume the terrain is flat. Note, work calculations are actually a lot more complicated than this because of circular energies of the wheels, but doing advanced integration here would probably get me banned.

However, (skip this if don't give a shit about physics) this is only assuming no inclines are present in either line, and we know for a fact that the depth of the subway is to decrease significantly over the course of the SSE. For every train travelling to Kennedy, they will also have to travel up an incline. For this, we have to add the initial work required to move the train along the line to the work required to move the train up. This can be represented by an equation for potential energy, U=mgh. If the train is to have to move up an incline of 20m, 40 megajoules of extra power are required. If this incline occurs over 2 minutes of travel time, 330 extra kilowatts of power are required to move that train up the incline. This is a difference of 550 amps of power per train. This is only going up the incline though. Going down the incline, the train does negative work to travel deeper underground. Since regenerative braking gives back about 30-50% of the 40 megajoules of energy required to move the train up the hill, the net energy difference as a result of this incline is between 20 and 28 megajoules per train. Let it be known, the terrain for the SLRT is not very flat, and the line goes up and down inclines as it switches from grade level to elevated.

Operators
Operators are the highest cost of a line. Since more drivers will be required to move the smaller trains to the STC, those operation costs increase
Since the line is a new standalone line with a different technology, it must have different route planners and different operation executives. These are the most expensive employees to pay, so operation costs there are significantly higher. Compare this to that of the Bloor Danforth line, where fewer operators are required to run trains, they are already employees of the TTC, and executives are already running a line and at worst will need small raises.

Maintenance (Trains)
Since LRVs have a statistically higher rate between breakdowns (15K km vs 600K km, so LRVs are 40 times as likely to break down as heavy rail vehicles), they require more deadheading and more Mantainence staff. These maintenance staff would also have to be based out of the new yard, or trains would require significant deadheading, meaning costs would increase no matter where maintenance takes place. Lost revenue also has to be considered when trains are taken out of service.

Maintenace (Infrastructure)
This one's hard to say, since the LRV would be elevated and longer than the subway. On one hand, concrete liners aren't an issue. On the other, pantograph carbons, & pantograph lines wear out quickly and need replacement more often than third rails etc. The line is also aboveground, adding to operation costs since they are susceptible to the elements.

Inefficiencies
It will take longer to take the LRT from Kennedy to the STC (where everyone travels to anyways). This must be accounted for with lost revenue. Factor in a transfer and the line pays for itself after 60 years. You must also factor in delays associated with running a line outside, where it is at the mercy of the weather. However, when you consider potential bloor danforth delays, this can potentially be ignored depending on future operation of the line.

Well thought-out and written! Deserves a shout-out!
 
Cancelling SSE for any kind of LRT would be a downgrade, but extending line 4 to STC would be a good compromise. There isn't really any good destinations on line 2 before you get to st.george and bloor/yonge anyways.
 
Estimated 36 million ridership per year vs. 31 million for the LRT plan. Net ~5,000,000 advantage subway!

Another in a long line of absurd comments.

That's not millions of lives. The SSE will actually benefit a small fraction of Toronto's population, and a much smaller fraction than the LRT would - especially when it comes to accessibility and inter-Scarborough travel.
 
Estimated 36 million ridership per year vs. 31 million for the LRT plan. Net ~5,000,000 advantage subway!

You realize those aren't each an individual life. It's closer to 16,500 lives will benefit.

Also, if we killed off both options and just gave everyone in Toronto $1600 each; far more than 16,500 people would feel their lives had improved who will not be impacted by SSE in any way at all.

There are good arguments in favour of SSE; I think you should stick with those.
 
With DRL long progressing and RER on Stouffville likely to happen sooner than this line 2 extension's completion, sacrificing this for a line 4 extension is more beneficial in terms of long term network connectivity. Just ask, how many of those who currently use line 3 have their destinations along line 2?
Because it was always about both subways. This was a multifaceted campaign and Tory fell for it. Both subways are going to be built, or people will try to mess with the DRL.
 

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