Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
Seriously...why does this "one-stop" subway project cost so much?
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OneCity
Senior Member
Smarttrack and not having @Rainforest on the design team review timely alternates to the deep bore tunnel.
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Rainforest
Senior Member
Thanks
I am sure the engineers who worked / are working on this project are well qualified. Unfortunately, it seems that they are constrained by a senselessly rigid design process that eliminates any chance of out-of-the-box thinking.
For example, 8 options for the SSE routing were analyzed, and the McCowan route selected. The "SRT Corridor" route was turned down because it delivers less benefits while not producing any substantial saving. Fair enough.
Since that, the cost of McCowan option went up by almost a billion. Some of the cost increases are explicitly attributed to the tunnel construction (deep tunnel, more concrete is needed than what was estimated previously).
It would seem logical that once the said cost increase is recognized, the route that uses substantially different technology ("SRT Corridor") should be revisited. But, no such luck. The route choice has been made at the previous step, and now the project team must work in the frame defined by that choice.
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
The opposite would be the Ottawa approach. They study and study, refine the concept, try to squeeze out more for less, and then the day before the RFP, suddenly pull out something improved. (That's Ottawanese for cheaper.) Then they start building and changing it more as they go along. No one really knows just what is being built because it's a private deal and they aren't telling. But you can't say they're inflexible.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
The more conversation about this waste of money, the more mystified I become.
If they are intent on ripping down the RT then why doesn't Tory just change the route of Smart Track so that instead of heading further north it follows the RT route to STC? The northern portion of ST is mainly going to benefit people in York Region so why is Toronto building a line to service mostly them? ST can be phased in as current lines will be electrified and when RT is ripped up and ST/RER tracks doubled then frequency can increase to near subway levels.
It would be a win for Tory as people in STC all of a sudden get their connection to B/D AND a much faster ST trip right to downtown. It would cost a mere fraction of this ill conceived subway plan, could be up and running in a couple years, Scar gets it's fast direct route downtown, no inconvenience of shut down of service, Tory keeps his promise, and everyone's happy. It could be extended to serve the college and up to Sheppard and on ward to Malvern. The great thing about that is that the Malvern to STC section would already be built for the potential RER Davisville crosstown route so Malverians and people at STC would have 2 RER/ST lines at their door by interlining the 2.
Tory has already changed the routing of ST West by not having it go west along Eglinton so what's the problem here?
If they are intent on ripping down the RT then why doesn't Tory just change the route of Smart Track so that instead of heading further north it follows the RT route to STC? The northern portion of ST is mainly going to benefit people in York Region so why is Toronto building a line to service mostly them? ST can be phased in as current lines will be electrified and when RT is ripped up and ST/RER tracks doubled then frequency can increase to near subway levels.
It would be a win for Tory as people in STC all of a sudden get their connection to B/D AND a much faster ST trip right to downtown. It would cost a mere fraction of this ill conceived subway plan, could be up and running in a couple years, Scar gets it's fast direct route downtown, no inconvenience of shut down of service, Tory keeps his promise, and everyone's happy. It could be extended to serve the college and up to Sheppard and on ward to Malvern. The great thing about that is that the Malvern to STC section would already be built for the potential RER Davisville crosstown route so Malverians and people at STC would have 2 RER/ST lines at their door by interlining the 2.
Tory has already changed the routing of ST West by not having it go west along Eglinton so what's the problem here?
Kyle Campbell
Active Member
"On time and on budget, on time and on budget, on time and on budget....oops". Still in the end they were able to get a lot more of that project for a lot less than Toronto is getting out of this one.
BurlOak
Senior Member
- My guess is that the ST trains are larger than the SRT trains (width mainly), so likely the elevated portion has to be rebuilt (a bit stronger and a bit wider apart). This is still not the end of the world as the cost of the 2.5km rebuilt is not exorbitant.
- The main reason this "SmartSpur" is not done is because the province would have to give up space in the Lakeshore East corridor for this service. And also, they don't want to give Tory the win for SmartSpur and SmartTrack and the Liberals really like the Subway extension as it has got them many votes this past half decade.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Rainforest
Senior Member
I don't see any benefit for the provincial Liberals to play against Tory; he is a convenient mayor for them. Either a rightist hardliner or an NDPer in that position could cost them more troubles.
I know he is a former provincial PC leadership candidate. But at the municipal level, he is a Liberal for all intents and purposes.
Anyway, that's an observation on the side.
Rainforest
Senior Member
I think that makes a lot of sense, but at the same time, requires too much thinking on the part of the city councilors, the Mayor's staff, or the TTC brass.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Because RER can't provide service frequent enough to serve Scarborough Centre.
rbt
Senior Member
The RER analysis was looked at from a cost savings perspective (RER + minimal branch/tail track). We don't really know what happens if you fix spending and try to provide highest levels of service/coverage: RER as planned + $4B to remove operational constraints was not looked at AFAIK.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
I don't know why frequency would be a problem. ST is already going to be a minimum of service every 10 minutes and probably more like every 6 minutes all day and getting rid of the SRT allows for 2 more rail tracks to serve ST & RER/GO. rebuilt the elevated bridge and station for $500 million and use that money to extend the elevated line to Malvern and this could be used as an interline section for an eventual crosstown line via Davis.
STC would have a real fast route to downtown, still have it's connection to Bloor, capacity would greatly be increased due to much larger trains/stations than on the current SRT and Lawrence could keep it's station. Tory would get huge support for this, the city would save billions or have true rapid transit to Malvern, have the first section of a crosstown built, and have it up and running at least 5 years before any subway.
Has this every actually been proposed or better yet sent to the Star?
STC would have a real fast route to downtown, still have it's connection to Bloor, capacity would greatly be increased due to much larger trains/stations than on the current SRT and Lawrence could keep it's station. Tory would get huge support for this, the city would save billions or have true rapid transit to Malvern, have the first section of a crosstown built, and have it up and running at least 5 years before any subway.
Has this every actually been proposed or better yet sent to the Star?
JSF-1
Active Member
^Will it even be possible to run trains at headway's less than 10-15 minutes? I sort of remember Metrolinx being very quiet on the issue of Trains running at headway's of less the 15 minutes. I know it has something to do with the number of train movements on the tracks and as well the fact that it (and all other GO Lines ) still use a Block Signal system which severely hampers the number of trains and there headway's. I know ML is working on the latter issue but any such signal replacement surely won't be in place by the time ST and RER in general are expected to begin. I personally find it very unlikely will see trains at anything less than 15 minute intervals.
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
The problems are that it only benefits people going to Union, making that the new Bloor Yonge. Most people are going to places other than the Financial District. St George is so important because many people avoid bloor yonge altogether and transfer there.
Granted, I believe the plan you are proposing was either one of the earlier ideas for Smarttrack. It was featured some video
