Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[rbt]

^Will it even be possible to run trains at headway's less than 10-15 minutes?

Well, that depends on what type of service you want to run.

If every train makes all stops, you can run them quite close together as you see on a Metro. If you want an express train to share the same tracks as an all-stop train without impeding the express train, then the all-stop trains must run quite infrequently.

Metrolinx could run all-stop diesel trains every ~4 minutes on a pair of tracks using the signalling strategy currently installed on Georgetown South. Of course, that only leaves 2 tracks for Stouffville/Lake Shore East/Via Rail through Union (4th Union east track is being installed for RER).

Using todays schedules, SCC could get a train every 8 minutes with 2000 seats; or 15_000 seats per direction per hour; nobody would need to stand.

Of course, Union would struggle to handle that passenger load and they'd need to figure out a way of turning trains around at the end points (3 to 4 tail-tracks to enable time for brake-tests/refuelling); but $4B goes a long way to making that possible.

Electrification (planned, kinda) and improved signalling (also largely planned) are both part of RER and make it much easier than with the diesels.

Express service kills capacity of the line on a pair of tracks. The timeslot for a single express train could have 3 to 4 additional all-stop trains instead. IMO, express trains really shouldn't be considered for any corridor with fewer than 3 tracks; though I do understand why it's politically expedient.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Well, that depends on what type of service you want to run.

If every train makes all stops, you can run them quite close together as you see on a Metro. If you want an express train to share the same tracks as an all-stop train without impeding the express train, then the all-stop trains must run quite infrequently.

Metrolinx could run all-stop diesel trains every ~4 minutes on a pair of tracks using the signalling strategy currently installed on Georgetown South. Of course, that only leaves 2 tracks for Stouffville/Lake Shore East/Via Rail through Union (4th Union east track is being installed for RER).

Using todays schedules, SCC could get a train every 8 minutes with 2000 seats; or 15_000 seats per direction per hour; nobody would need to stand.

Of course, Union would struggle to handle that passenger load and they'd need to figure out a way of turning trains around at the end points (3 to 4 tail-tracks to enable time for brake-tests/refuelling); but $4B goes a long way to making that possible.

Electrification (planned, kinda) and improved signalling (also largely planned) are both part of RER and make it much easier than with the diesels.

Express service kills capacity of the line on a pair of tracks. The timeslot for a single express train could have 3 to 4 additional all-stop trains instead. IMO, express trains really shouldn't be considered for any corridor with fewer than 3 tracks; though I do understand why it's politically expedient.

It's worth noting that express service is what will keep passengers on GO, add more passengers, or ruin it for everyone. Here in Waterloo, I know dozens of people that would take GO in an instant on a daily basis if the travel times were reduced to 1:30 hours:minutes or less. Even with the current service patterns, this will probably be possible. Have the trains bypass Mount Pleasant and Bramalea and all other stops into Toronto, and fix the tracks to and in Guelph. Middle express tracks will be coming to almost every line, and it's only needed in core sections. Even in RER settings, we can have stations with side tracks to access platforms and have express trains bypass local trains. We'll see what metrolinx comes up with.

 

[syn]

[QUOTE="Streety McCarface, post: 1312877, member: 72181"]The problems are that it only benefits people going to Union, making that the new Bloor Yonge. Most people are going to places other than the Financial District. St George is so important because many people avoid bloor yonge altogether and transfer there.

Granted, I believe the plan you are proposing was either one of the earlier ideas for Smarttrack. It was featured some video
View attachment 136438[/QUOTE]

This is what makes it an excellent idea.

Bloor-Yonge has crowding issues. If you're heading somewhere else downtown you can just transfer to the subway or walk.

 

[Streety McCarface]

[QUOTE="Streety McCarface, post: 1312877, member: 72181"]The problems are that it only benefits people going to Union, making that the new Bloor Yonge. Most people are going to places other than the Financial District. St George is so important because many people avoid bloor yonge altogether and transfer there.

Granted, I believe the plan you are proposing was either one of the earlier ideas for Smarttrack. It was featured some video
View attachment 136438

This is what makes it an excellent idea.

Bloor-Yonge has crowding issues. If you're heading somewhere else downtown you can just transfer to the subway or walk.[/QUOTE]

The issue is that if too many people go through Union station, then we have crowding problems there instead of at Bloor Yonge, St George, and Spadina (1 station instead of 3). With RER, ridership will probably more than double to about 500K across the whole system. Assume 300K are transferring between GO and the TTC at Union, huge problems arise. It's crowded enough as is with 100K people there. With another 200-300K people there, it will become just as dangerous as it was before the construction. Plus, the transfer is even more cumbersome than the Kennedy transfer. It's really a great option for people going to Union, the waterfront, or the financial district, but nowhere else. A hybrid plan needs to be considered, but a spur from the GO line would be extremely helpful. The only question now is how are they going to retrofit the existing right of way to fit 25m RER cars.

 

[BurlOak]

Using todays schedules, SCC could get a train every 8 minutes with 2000 seats; or 15_000 seats per direction per hour; nobody would need to stand.

I'd say 12 minutes.
SmartTrack (or RER) trains would be at 12 minute frequency, alternating to Pickering, STC/Malvern, and Agincourt/Markham. That's 10,000 seat per hour - which is about twice today's capacity.
And it could be improved to about twice that in time.

 

[syn]

The issue is that if too many people go through Union station, then we have crowding problems there instead of at Bloor Yonge, St George, and Spadina (1 station instead of 3). With RER, ridership will probably more than double to about 500K across the whole system. Assume 300K are transferring between GO and the TTC at Union, huge problems arise. It's crowded enough as is with 100K people there. With another 200-300K people there, it will become just as dangerous as it was before the construction. Plus, the transfer is even more cumbersome than the Kennedy transfer. It's really a great option for people going to Union, the waterfront, or the financial district, but nowhere else. A hybrid plan needs to be considered, but a spur from the GO line would be extremely helpful. The only question now is how are they going to retrofit the existing right of way to fit 25m RER cars.

Then riders can get off at Kennedy and take the Eglinton LRT. Or, they can get off at Main/Danforth and transfer to the Bloor Line. They can also get off at Queen and take the streetcar. This plan offers plenty of coverage and direct access downtown.

 

[BurlOak]

Then riders can get off at Kennedy and take the Eglinton LRT. Or, they can get off at Main/Danforth and transfer to the Bloor Line. They can also get off at Queen and take the streetcar. This plan offers plenty of coverage and direct access downtown.

Your also not mentioning switching to the DRL at Gerrard and/or East Harbour.

 

[syn]

^I was basing this on not having a DRL, but that's an excellent point.

 

[ssiguy2]

It seems like a logical choice and Tory gets his ST and gets to keep his promise of a continuous non-transfer trip from STC to downtown. If the DRL uses catenary subway which is what ST/RER will be using, then some of the trains could head to Union and others via the DRL to Queen. It seems so logical, saves a fortune, saver a lot of construction time, Scar citizens get far superior transit and many more options, Lawrence keeps it's station, ST is a go, and Tory keep his commitment to subway to STC as that is what ST is.

It seems so easy I keep thinking I must be missing something. Why is this not proposed and {to make it personal} why have none of you written to the mayor, TTC, Metrolinx, councillors, and better yet The Star to get the conversation going?

 

[Leo_Chan]

It seems like a logical choice and Tory gets his ST and gets to keep his promise of a continuous non-transfer trip from STC to downtown. If the DRL uses catenary subway which is what ST/RER will be using, then some of the trains could head to Union and others via the DRL to Queen. It seems so logical, saves a fortune, saver a lot of construction time, Scar citizens get far superior transit and many more options, Lawrence keeps it's station, ST is a go, and Tory keep his commitment to subway to STC as that is what ST is.

It seems so easy I keep thinking I must be missing something. Why is this not proposed and {to make it personal} why have none of you written to the mayor, TTC, Metrolinx, councillors, and better yet The Star to get the conversation going?

would you like to do it?

 

[BurlOak]

It seems like a logical choice and Tory gets his ST and gets to keep his promise of a continuous non-transfer trip from STC to downtown. If the DRL uses catenary subway which is what ST/RER will be using, then some of the trains could head to Union and others via the DRL to Queen. It seems so logical, saves a fortune, saver a lot of construction time, Scar citizens get far superior transit and many more options, Lawrence keeps it's station, ST is a go, and Tory keep his commitment to subway to STC as that is what ST is.

It seems so easy I keep thinking I must be missing something. Why is this not proposed and {to make it personal} why have none of you written to the mayor, TTC, Metrolinx, councillors, and better yet The Star to get the conversation going?

Like everything in Toronto - its politics. 4 Years ago, a change could have been made. The Liberals, as "Subway Champions", basically assured that the subway would be built. The Liberals had won 3 election in a row where they deserved to lose, so no other party, or municipal politician, where willing to go against their direction.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Then riders can get off at Kennedy and take the Eglinton LRT. Or, they can get off at Main/Danforth and transfer to the Bloor Line. They can also get off at Queen and take the streetcar. This plan offers plenty of coverage and direct access downtown.

Your also not mentioning switching to the DRL at Gerrard and/or East Harbour.

These are excellent, however, one must make sure each of these transfers aren't cumbersome or confusing (ie Transfers at Dundas West)

 

[JSF-1]

Then riders can get off at Kennedy and take the Eglinton LRT. Or, they can get off at Main/Danforth and transfer to the Bloor Line. They can also get off at Queen and take the streetcar. This plan offers plenty of coverage and direct access downtown.

I think both the TTC and ML need to drop the charade that Main Street and Danforth GO Station are a viable "Transfer point". From and efficient "transfer" perspective those two stations may as well be in different countries because they are nowhere close to each other. Transferring from Main to Danforth (or visa-versa) is the equivalent of transferring from Line 1 to Line 2 at Spadina, but I digress.

 

[syn]

I think both the TTC and ML need to drop the charade that Main Street and Danforth GO Station are a viable "Transfer point". From and efficient "transfer" perspective those two stations may as well be in different countries because they are nowhere close to each other. Transferring from Main to Danforth (or visa-versa) is the equivalent of transferring from Line 1 to Line 2 at Spadina, but I digress.

Addressing that issue is a lot more sensible and cost effective than a $4 billion - $5 billion subway extension.

They could also ensure that the DRL has an efficient connection for quick transfers.

 

[MisterF]

It seems like a logical choice and Tory gets his ST and gets to keep his promise of a continuous non-transfer trip from STC to downtown. If the DRL uses catenary subway which is what ST/RER will be using, then some of the trains could head to Union and others via the DRL to Queen. It seems so logical, saves a fortune, saver a lot of construction time, Scar citizens get far superior transit and many more options, Lawrence keeps it's station, ST is a go, and Tory keep his commitment to subway to STC as that is what ST is.

It seems so easy I keep thinking I must be missing something. Why is this not proposed and {to make it personal} why have none of you written to the mayor, TTC, Metrolinx, councillors, and better yet The Star to get the conversation going?

Part of the problem is that the average person in the GTA has no concept of RER. Mention things like fare integration and frequent service and their eyes glaze over. Rapid transit means subways, subways, subways. Politicians cater to that.

I think both the TTC and ML need to drop the charade that Main Street and Danforth GO Station are a viable "Transfer point". From and efficient "transfer" perspective those two stations may as well be in different countries because they are nowhere close to each other. Transferring from Main to Danforth (or visa-versa) is the equivalent of transferring from Line 1 to Line 2 at Spadina, but I digress.

They could integrate the stations better but it's not a priority because an effective transfer between the SRT, subway, GO, and Crosstown already exists at Kennedy. And two new transfers between GO and the DRL are planned.