TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Nevermind that a rather large portion of Scarborough residents don’t even support the thing. But I suppose it’s a lot harder to push a bs “us vs them” narrative when there is dissent within your own ranks.
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Nevermind that a rather large portion of Scarborough residents don’t even support the thing. But I suppose it’s a lot harder to push a bs “us vs them” narrative when there is dissent within your own ranks.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
The SSE is without question one of the top three issues in the city. Not only that, it’s an issue that the city is heavily divided on, and could easily become a full blown political scalndal, given the cost escalations, and Tory’s attempts at stopping Torontonians from finding out how much this is going to cost.
If the price comes out and it turns out to be obscenely expensive, this could become a scandal that consumes the entire election, and that sends much of Tory’s base to other candidates.
Also, Tory’s base isn’t Scarborough. He does not want to be in the position of tuning off all his other areas of support to appease Scarborough. The SSE is not the hill he wants to die on.
OneCity
Senior Member
Sure many people are not happy about the one stop. But the vast majority of Scarborough voters will flip their lids if the line is cancelled, significantly delayed or future is dictated by the Downtowns council. This reality of apathy is not well reported whatsoever. 99% democratic support for a subway candidate, the last two Mayors, plus runner up, and all Provincial leaders should make you think its not something that shouldnt be taken lightly. The source talking about a "rather large portion" may be a bit biased and misleading with half truths that paints a rosier picture of a cancellation.
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TheTigerMaster
Superstar
That doesn't count for much. If 51% of residents in each ward support the subway, 100% of the elected councillors will be pro-subway (hypothetical situation where the subway is the only issue). It's one of the biggest flaws of our political system.
Some examples of this:
In the 2014 Ontario election, the Liberals won 55% of ridings, with only 39% of the popular vote
In the 1995 Quebec independence referndum, more than two-thirds of ridings voted to separate from Canada, even though only 49% of Quebec residents voted that way. If the referendum results were decided based on numbers of ridings won, Quebec would be an independent country right now, despite a majority of their population opposing independence.
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OneCity
Senior Member
I get your belief and what your attempting to paint but I just don't see it even close to this. The subway(s) is very big here and being dangerously underestimated when all the warnings have been glowing in the last decade to do better than Transfer City. We also just extended the subway into empty Vaughan and that moment didn't soften the support in anyway. For a laundry list of reasons I really don't see a full cancellation being considered by any relevant Politician as it would be the start of complete chaos politically. Like Rob Ford era x 1000.
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nfitz
Superstar
With your newness here, you've missed much of this debate in the past. And things have changed a lot.
The addition of all the unnecessary transfers for Scarborough riders seems to surely be an unpopular when the denizens of Scarborough discover how badly they've been swindled, with the closing of 4 stations on Subway line 3
I'm not sure I'm willing to trust someone six years late to the discussion, who isn't even aware of the proper name of the project.
There's always going to be a transfer between Line 5 and Line 2 at Kennedy. I'm not sure why you think Scarberians are going to be happier by a one-station extension of Line 2 to Scarborough Centre, rather than the currently approved fully-grade separated 9-station extension of Line 5 to Malvern (though with only 8 stations currently aproved/funded)
a fully-grade separated
That extension was pretty much a no-brainer through York University. The remaining line was 0% paid for by Toronto. If Scarborough wants to fund their own line - go for it.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Line 5 extension? TTC rejected the interlining between Eglinton and SLRT, before SLRT was replaced with the subway plan.
That would require excluding Scarborough from paying for projects in other parts of the city, and complicate the city finances big time. Impractical.
pman
Senior Member
Presumably that could be solved by making Scarborough an independent city.
nfitz
Superstar
Then why did IO start tendering them as a single project in January 2013, that "allowed for through running with Eglinton Crosstown LRT.
And why do the same words existing in the December 2012 Master agreement between TTC and Metrolinx on what will be built and how?
crs1026
Superstar
It would be interesting to ask the provincial PC candidates, who all maintain that there is 'waste' in the City budget that can fund things, how they would squeeze waste out of this project.
I'm still hung up on cut and cover. That might be an easy billion saved, without redebating the project itself. Unfortunately the media (on both left and right) will publish articles with puctures of sad looking families (no doubt immigrants who came to Canada with nothing) in front of the houses that they worked themselves to the bone to pay for, and how the City is screwing them by expropriating their properties. The stories will be true, and I have empathy for that, but they are disingenuous....... that's how things get built in any city. Never mind that the settlements will be generous and these families will laugh their way into a bigger, nicer new house somewhere else.... the politicians just don't have stomach for this. There is no unfairness here - Toronto and Etobicke swallowed hard and put up with the impacts in their day.
- Paul
I'm still hung up on cut and cover. That might be an easy billion saved, without redebating the project itself. Unfortunately the media (on both left and right) will publish articles with puctures of sad looking families (no doubt immigrants who came to Canada with nothing) in front of the houses that they worked themselves to the bone to pay for, and how the City is screwing them by expropriating their properties. The stories will be true, and I have empathy for that, but they are disingenuous....... that's how things get built in any city. Never mind that the settlements will be generous and these families will laugh their way into a bigger, nicer new house somewhere else.... the politicians just don't have stomach for this. There is no unfairness here - Toronto and Etobicke swallowed hard and put up with the impacts in their day.
- Paul
OneCity
Senior Member
Cut the condescending crap wth your holier than thou, out of touch Dowtown orientated transit opinion. The transfer LRT was overwhelming shot down in almost every seat a candidate ran against it in the last decade. As you may or may not be aware Scarborough council asked for the subway in Miller's first term so this shouldn't be shocking.
Just because a transfer has been there for years didnt make it a good legacy that people support. The RT is not well respected for many reasons and that's where the real swindle began. Residents want better connectivity to the City they have paid taxes into for decades. Neither the one stop subway or the rejected LRT was the right plan. Sad some refused to even work on improving connectivity here and on Sheppard. Thankfully many are fighting to make these changes in a difficult environment
Scarborough will fund its own future when the same rules apply to other areas of the City. The subway will be built and start a better long term future for Scarborough in combination with improved local transit.
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Rainforest
Senior Member
The design of the Kennedy station would allow through running. However, TTC said they are not planning to through run the two lines.
They probably covered their bases in case there is public pressure to through-run, but that wasn't their own preferred configuration.
Rainforest
Senior Member
A complete separation would work, and perhaps both sides would find some benefits. Queens Park might not like that though.
My previous statement was to highlight the difficulty of excluding a part of the city from funding a particular project, while maintaining a common fiscal system for other purposes.
raptor
Senior Member
It keeps amazing me how many people actually believe this project will be built
micheal_can
Senior Member
It will be built, that is a reality. When, how and where are the questions.