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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

pman said:
Cue the assertions that you can't trust anything you read about SSE in The Star and The Globe because they're anti-Scarborough. Or the old reliable argument that building transit isn't about moving the most incremental riders for the least cost, or servicing already developed areas, or relieving congestion that's already terrible and going to be a lot worse soon, it's about fairness for folks in Scarborough because they deserve a subway, and Warden and Kennedy don't count. Plus those pointy headed planners who claim SSE will result in a marginal reduction in travel times don't know anything about lived experience, as I believe our Mayor observed.
Click to expand...

Naw you can always trust they'll provide many solid facts along with a large amount of pointy headed subway supporter arguments and quotes to enhance the one sided agenda. It really is unfortunate it has to be this expensive to remove the transfer but they went all in on Millers plan which wasn't even the cheapest if transfers before SCC fits your preference. It even could have been LRT to remove the transfer, but we just need to move on now.
 
Rainforest said:
The lowest of recent SSE peak ridership estimates, 7,300 pphpd, still justifies a subway. There are few other corridors in this city whare you can get higher peak ridership. Nothing comes to mind other than the Relief Line, and Yonge North.

In a way, we wouldn't have this debate at all, if there was no alternative ROW available along the Uxbridge sub and the existing SRT guideway. The ridership of 7,300 pphpd requires a fully grade separate line. A street-median LRT will be at capacity trying to carry that volume, while a tunneled LRT would cost almost as much as a subway.
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That isn't true at all. 7,300 doesn't come anywhere near justifying a subway, especially not for a 6km stretch.

An LRT's capacity is around 15,000 - Scarborough is nowhere near that in terms of ridership.

"A TTC briefing note raises the prospect of low demand resulting in only half the Bloor-Danforth trains carrying on east all the way to Scarborough Town Centre, with the rest turning back at Kennedy station. Noting that a subway line running six-car trains can carry 14,000 to 36,000 people an hour, the document explains that, “The lower
ranges of the passenger demand thresholds determine whether they warrant five-minute or better rapid-transit service.”

The note also undermines one of the key political arguments – that Scarborough Town Centre will be one of the busiest stations on the line – noting that a station’s passenger volume “is usually not used for determining transit technology."





"A two-stop subway to Scarborough Town Centre is studied by the Toronto Transit Commission. The idea lacks political backing and the transit agency does not publish a ridership estimate. It does conclude that, based on growth expectations beyond 2021, it would be “prudent” for this section of transit to be able to carry 7,500 to 8,000 at its busiest hour, about one-quarter the capacity of a subway. The agency says “the huge capacity achievable with a subway is not needed or warranted in this corridor."


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...the-scarborough-subwaydebate/article34270677/
 
syn said:
That isn't true at all. 7,300 doesn't come anywhere near justifying a subway, especially not for a 6km stretch.

An LRT's capacity is around 15,000 - Scarborough is nowhere near that in terms of ridership.

"A TTC briefing note raises the prospect of low demand resulting in only half the Bloor-Danforth trains carrying on east all the way to Scarborough Town Centre, with the rest turning back at Kennedy station. Noting that a subway line running six-car trains can carry 14,000 to 36,000 people an hour, the document explains that, “The lower
ranges of the passenger demand thresholds determine whether they warrant five-minute or better rapid-transit service.”

The note also undermines one of the key political arguments – that Scarborough Town Centre will be one of the busiest stations on the line – noting that a station’s passenger volume “is usually not used for determining transit technology."





"A two-stop subway to Scarborough Town Centre is studied by the Toronto Transit Commission. The idea lacks political backing and the transit agency does not publish a ridership estimate. It does conclude that, based on growth expectations beyond 2021, it would be “prudent” for this section of transit to be able to carry 7,500 to 8,000 at its busiest hour, about one-quarter the capacity of a subway. The agency says “the huge capacity achievable with a subway is not needed or warranted in this corridor."


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...the-scarborough-subwaydebate/article34270677/
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If you think starting a separate network one stop before SCC is good planning then sure LRT, Skytrain are good option. I don't, and SCC is an end of the line stop (for now) that will be higher ridership then Kipling and Islington. We can get rid of Smarttrack and the ridership will head back up.

The current plan makes the subway very easy to attack, but unfortunately the opposition has nothing else to offer so we just need to move on.
 
OneCity said:
If you think starting a separate network one stop before SCC is good planning then sure LRT, Skytrain are good option. I don't, and SCC is an end of the line stop (for now) that will be higher ridership then Kipling and Islington. We can get rid of Smarttrack and the ridership will head back up.

The current plan makes the subway very easy to attack, but unfortunately the opposition has nothing else to offer so we just need to move on.
Click to expand...

You don't - but that's not a fact that justifies it as good planning.

Higher ridership than Kipling and Islington is debatable. What's not is that Kipling and Islington are just 1km apart, with each station having 4-5 stations within 6km of them. If Kipling went straight to Runnymede, it would probably be Top 3 in the system in terms of ridership. The same goes for Islington.

This has been pointed out more than once yet you consistently ignore it for some reason...
 
syn said:
An LRT's capacity is around 15,000 - Scarborough is nowhere near that in terms of ridership.
Click to expand...

SLRT, being fully grade separate, could do that, but only because the surface corridor is available.

Otherwise, a statement about ridership being not enough for subway would be outright ridiculous.

With the surface corridor present, noone is denying that the ridership could be accommodated on LRT. Yet, the subway is another option, and happens to be the one that actually has been selected.
 
Rainforest said:
SLRT, being fully grade separate, could do that, but only because the surface corridor is available.

Otherwise, a statement about ridership being not enough for subway would be outright ridiculous.

With the surface corridor present, noone is denying that the ridership could be accommodated on LRT. Yet, the subway is another option, and happens to be the one that actually has been selected.
Click to expand...
If we want to talk corridors - there is also one that extends from near Kennedy Station to the Don Valley (the Gatineau Hydro corridor) and then there is another corridor from Flemingdon to Downtown (the Don Valley itself).
 
syn said:
You don't - but that's not a fact that justifies it as good planning.

Higher ridership than Kipling and Islington is debatable. What's not is that Kipling and Islington are just 1km apart, with each station having 4-5 stations within 6km of them. If Kipling went straight to Runnymede, it would probably be Top 3 in the system in terms of ridership. The same goes for Islington.

This has been pointed out more than once yet you consistently ignore it for some reason...
Click to expand...

If we added stops in between SCC and Kennedy SCC will still have comparable ridership to both Kipling and Islington. Smarttrack is the problem for ridership, and more importantly the transfer is not wanted in this location by people who actually care the future of SCC but that clearly has been pointed out to you as well, and you choose to ignore.
 
Last edited:
narduch said:
No

No one is forcing you to read it.
Click to expand...

When I go away for a day and come back with pages of whining people about LRT or multiple stops, it gets annoying.

I was hoping for more information on the process.

So, yes, they are forcing me to read their whining BS.
 
micheal_can said:
When I go away for a day and come back with pages of whining people about LRT or multiple stops, it gets annoying.

I was hoping for more information on the process.

So, yes, they are forcing me to read their whining BS.
Click to expand...

What are you expecting to read in here if there is no actual new news?

And yes, you are not being forced to read this thread.

As long as the discussion is civil the mods should keep the thread open.

Besides this is an ongoing project, it would be stupid to close the thread.
 
narduch said:
What are you expecting to read in here if there is no actual new news?

And yes, you are not being forced to read this thread.

As long as the discussion is civil the mods should keep the thread open.

Besides this is an ongoing project, it would be stupid to close the thread.
Click to expand...

Then it should be moderated and the garbage be gotten rid of.
 
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