Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Johnny Au]

Continuing the current 1-stop plan is escalation of commitment. Adding 2 more stations, with much lower marginal costs is something else. I'll let someone search dubious Wikipedia entries to find the right word.

As among the top Wikipedians in the world, the right word is probably Scope creep or Feature creep.

 

[Tuck]

^Not quite.

Escalation of commitment (I think) is continuing to support a bad idea even in the face of information telling you its a bad idea.

Scope/feature creep is taking *any* project, good and bad, and adding more and more to it, going well beyond the initial scope of work.

The Spadina extension is an example of this, I think - the original plan/scope of work was only to go to York.

The original 3-stop extension was $4.7 billion last year when the 1-stop subway was $3.1 billion. Presumably with the 1-stop subway costing $3.4 billion (not sure where $5 billion is coming from), the 3-stop subway would be $5 billion.

Presumably then the $5 billion number is the 3-stop subway.

Quite frankly, if you are going to blow $3.4 billion for 1-stop, it's a no brainer for two more stops at $800 million each.

Tbh, I agree, I think. I don't like the idea of half-assing infrastructure. If the thing is going to be built, do it properly. *At least* to Scarborough Center - in other words, add in Lawrence and stop this 6km tunnel with only one stop nonsense.

Granted, if the ridership at the Lawrence stop really is too low, I s'pose theres no point. 800 million is a lot of money...

 

[dowlingm]

Yes and no. It'd be offsetting stations on Smart Track/RER.

$800m buys a LOT of LaughTrack/RER stations.

 

[Rainforest]

Is it possible to strengthen the SSE project by tappind into the Trudeau's new 40% infrastructure partnership fund, without any new municipal or provincial contributions?

The current federal commitment to SSE stands at $660 million, which is well below 40% of the $3.4 billion projected cost.

The SSE project was commenced before the Trudeau's announcement. Not sure if that disqualifies this project; depends on how the conditions are formulated. The construction obviously did not start yet, and the design work is still in the early stages.

The combined provincial and municipal contribution stands at 3,400 - 660 = $2,740 million (to reach the 40% mark). That means, the federal contribution could be as large as $1,820 million. That's additional 1,820 - 660 = $1,160 million.

That might be enough to restore both the Lawrence East station and the Sheppard / McCowan station. Or, at least one of them.

 

[Cobra]

Is it possible to strengthen the SSE project by tappind into the Trudeau's new 40% infrastructure partnership fund, without any new municipal or provincial contributions?

The current federal commitment to SSE stands at $660 million, which is well below 40% of the $3.4 billion projected cost.

The SSE project was commenced before the Trudeau's announcement. Not sure if that disqualifies this project; depends on how the conditions are formulated. The construction obviously did not start yet, and the design work is still in the early stages.

The combined provincial and municipal contribution stands at 3,400 - 660 = $2,740 million (to reach the 40% mark). That means, the federal contribution could be as large as $1,820 million. That's additional 1,820 - 660 = $1,160 million.

That might be enough to restore both the Lawrence East station and the Sheppard / McCowan station. Or, at least one of them.

That's why they need to "plan" Lawrence East as well so it can be at least be built in the future like North York Centre was. In theory, SSE should qualify for the Federal funds, it just needs to be shovel ready, which it isn't. Montreal REM, surprisingly already is, which is why they are going after the 40% funding.

 

[Hopkins123]

That's why they need to "plan" Lawrence East as well so it can be at least be built in the future like North York Centre was. In theory, SSE should qualify for the Federal funds, it just needs to be shovel ready, which it isn't. Montreal REM, surprisingly already is, which is why they are going after the 40% funding.

Funny how Montreal's REM wasn't even on anyone's radar a year ago and now it's progressed to the shovel-ready stage in no time.

I guess that's what happens when a City has it's priorities straight.

SSE would be near completion by now if not for all the Machiavellian behind the scenes scheming and second guessing that has occurred.

 

[aquateam]

Funny how Montreal's REM wasn't even on anyone's radar a year ago and now it's progressed to the shovel-ready stage in no time.

I guess that's what happens when a City has it's priorities straight.

SSE would be near completion by now if not for all the Machiavellian behind the scenes scheming and second guessing that has occurred.

The funny thing is that the City's top priority has been the Blue line extension for years, and still is their official. It's only the Caisse de Depot that came up with this line a year ago, and that's why it's moving so quickly.

The Blue line extension is kind of like a less extreme version of the Sheppard extension. The Blue line is the least-performing metro line. The extension goes into a low density area that could potentially be better served by LRT. It has a lot of political support even though it's not the highest ridership extension because it serves boroughs that deserve it. And it increases crowding on the most congested section of the Orange line.

 

[nfitz]

Shovel ready? I don't think so. As far as I know they are still debating such basic details as financing, and exclusive use of the Mount Royal Tunnel - let alone doing the necessary design work.

 

[Sakraycore]

I've lived in downtown toronto (bloor/yonge) for 10 years, I know what real transit is like. I've also lived in Scarborough for 10 years, I know what shitty/barely passable transit is like.

But I also know that if STC is turned into a real subway station, then students at UTSC or Centennial College (Progress campus) will get a taste of real transit, because STC Is a real hub that connects to colleges like these. In extreme weather you could wait in the student center of UTSC no prob, and only go out when you see the bus come. Then the subway station will offer refuge while you're waiting.

Yes, then it would be possible to complete the trip to downtown without any exposure to the elements for people who live close to a bus station that connects to STC (and there will be a TON of buses that will end there)..

And ofcourse, Boroughs who now have a real subway station will then be 100% behind the DRL since they will be able to fully benefit from it...

 

[syn]

Of those, only one will be delivered before the election. One hasn't even done significant planning. One will barely have any serious construction underway. And one will be in progress.

So of the $8 billion they've pledged how much will be delivering a tangible improvement at election time, or even before the next election?

What does it matter?

The Spadina Extension and Eglinton Line are all well underway, with funding commitments for other projects - we're not even considering projects outside of Toronto.

If there's one thing I can't fault them on, it's spending for transit expansion.

 

[syn]

I've lived in downtown toronto (bloor/yonge) for 10 years, I know what real transit is like. I've also lived in Scarborough for 10 years, I know what shitty/barely passable transit is like.

But I also know that if STC is turned into a real subway station, then students at UTSC or Centennial College (Progress campus) will get a taste of real transit, because STC Is a real hub that connects to colleges like these. In extreme weather you could wait in the student center of UTSC no prob, and only go out when you see the bus come. Then the subway station will offer refuge while you're waiting.

Yes, then it would be possible to complete the trip to downtown without any exposure to the elements for people who live close to a bus station that connects to STC (and there will be a TON of buses that will end there)..

And ofcourse, Boroughs who now have a real subway station will then be 100% behind the DRL since they will be able to fully benefit from it...

They will fully benefit from it now.

Going outside is one of the realities of transit use. Do you honestly think everyone downtown has an outdoors free transit experience?

Believe it or not, some people have to walk to get to a streetcar and never set foot underground.

Others take a subway ride then have to wait outside for a bus.

Students at St George Campus must frequently brave the elements to get to class or travel home.

UTM has no subway connection whatsoever (unless you count Islington Station) and it's managed to thrive, with plenty of the commuter population taking transit.

Are Scarborough students so unique that they are unable to be outside when traveling?

My thinking is that they'd appreciate an LRT connection far more than being able to take the bus to a subway station...especially when the RT they currently use is already fully covered and has more stops.

As a student who did a lot of commuting, the elimination of the RT stops has the potential to make the commute a nightmare for many UTSC students. The novelty of a subway station will mean nothing to them in short order.

 

[Sakraycore]

They will fully benefit from it now.

Going outside is one of the realities of transit use. Do you honestly think everyone downtown has an outdoors free transit experience?

Believe it or not, some people have to walk to get to a streetcar and ever set foot underground.

Others take a subway ride then have to wait outside for a bus.

Students at St George Campus must frequently brave the elements to get to class or travel home.

UTM has no subway connection whatsoever (unless you count Islington Station) and it's managed to thrive, with plenty of the commuter population taking transit.

Are Scarborough students so unique that they are unable to be outside when traveling?

My thinking is that they'd appreciate an LRT connection far more than being able to take the bus to a subway station...especially when the RT they currently use is already fully covered and has more stops.

As a student who did a lot of commuting, the elimination of the RT stops has the potential to make the commute a nightmare for many UTSC students. The novelty of a subway station will mean nothing to them in short order.

That RT you're talking about, it sucks and it's definately the weak link. Standing outside for 10 minutes when it's -10C outside really sucks.

 

[JGHali]

That RT you're talking about, it sucks and it's definately the weak link. Standing outside for 10 minutes when it's -10C outside really sucks.

Somehow they manage to brave outdoor LRT stations in Calgary and Edmonton. I've heard it's colder there.

Of course, stations like Yorkdale and Davisville tend to be pretty drafty.

 

[syn]

That RT you're talking about, it sucks and it's definately the weak link. Standing outside for 10 minutes when it's -10C outside really sucks.

It's going to suck even more having to wait for an extra bus because all the stations in between STC and Kennedy are being eliminated.

I wonder what it's like for all the people downtown who have to wait outside for streetcars, on routes with more ridership than the RT?

 

[Sakraycore]

It's going to suck even more having to wait for an extra bus because all the stations in between STC and Kennedy are being eliminated.

I wonder what it's like for all the people downtown who have to wait outside for streetcars, on routes with more ridership than the RT?

I guess you could have buses going towards Kennedy or STC depending on which is closer.

Also yea it does suck waiting for the streetcar in downtown, it used to drive me nuts when I went to St.George campus for a semester. The good thing is you could wait in say Burger King for awhile if the weather is real bad.