Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

The best thing about this thread is that I've learned that if Sean Spicer or Kellyanne Conway for some reason lose their jobs, some people here have become such excellent peddlers of Orwellian fiction and Trumpian logic that they are ripe candidates to slot right in. This thread should be renamed to "Training Ground for the Post-truth World".

I'd rather rename it to "Whining club for people who consistently lose City Council votes and cannot accept that".

Seriously, the only chance for SSE opponents to try change the course is to field their candidates in the next municipal and provincial elections; particularly in the Scarborough ridings. That exercise would be useful, whatever the outcome is. If those candidates indeed manage to convince Scarberians that an LRT-only plan is best for them, then well, the people will have spoken and who are we to block their new decision. If, on the other hand, those candidates get soundly defeated, then we can finally dispose the notion that the residents were "misinformed", "pampered" etc.

 

[CodeMonkey]

I don't know why subway supporters in this thread fail to realize is that the $3.5 billion number for the subway is based on 5% design, while the $2.5-2.9 billion number for the LRT is based on 30% design. This means the cost of the LRT is far more accurate than the cost of the subway, and the cost of the subway could balloon to as much as $5 billion. It doesn't make sense that an elevated LRT would only be $500 million cheaper than a deep bored subway.

It comes from a TTC Briefing(Toronto Star) note that anger transit advocates as "misleading", but as of late the City Manager has said that the current costs of the LRT options are "unknown"(Toronto Star).

 

[innsertnamehere]

Is there any way we could change the thread title? This has been a subway extension for over 3 years now, may as well change it to reflect that.

 

[OneCity]

And are you seriously suggesting evidence and fact based arguments are 'divisive rhetoric'??!?

Its what this ``evidence`` is being used to propagate, the ongoing stubbornness to keep repeating the same failed logic over and over, and the lack of compromise is what is divisive. We could find just as much evidence to say the Fords plan was more effective than the SLRT. We could find just as much evidence to find that the RT upgrade could be more cost effective than LRT, we could find a lot of evidence to support an above ground subway over SLRT and the tunnel. Also alot of evidence is not discussed by these people such as to what we have built for lesser and comparable City Centres It all depends what you are trying to promote, what the criteria is, and how its weighted.

Its the criteria that they are using that is flawed. The transfers are poor and there should be a heavier weighting on this portion of the design. This importance should be clear by now. You likely wouldn't care as these Politicians are telling you what you want to hear same as what Scarborough councillor are telling Scarborough residents. There is no end game to this polarized debate until compromise is made. Tory has likely thrown the wrench at both sides and no one will be fully satisfied and we`ll all pay extra and lose stops for this Poltical divide lack of compromise.

 

[Sakraycore]

At the end of the day, downtown residents only care about their DRL and couldn't care less about what Scarborough gets (hopefully no transit forever) while Scarborough residents want their subway station even if it's just 1 stop. Downtown residents will do anything to foil Scarborough from getting their subway because they will never go to Scarborough and have no reason to care about Scarborough transit ever...

So pointless debate is pointless, noone will ever see the other side's points ever.

 

[OneCity]

At the end of the day, downtown residents only care about their DRL and couldn't care less about what Scarborough gets (hopefully no transit forever) while Scarborough residents want their subway station even if it's just 1 stop. Downtown residents will do anything to foil Scarborough from getting their subway because they will never go to Scarborough and have no reason to care about Scarborough transit ever...

So pointless debate is pointless, noone will ever see the other side's points ever.

That not completely true. Scarborough is a huge place will multiple needs in differing areas. The subway to SCC is only one part and its supported in multiple areas outside of SCC. Local improvements are also supported depending upon the area. Blanket solutions are not the right thing and the Downtown Politicians don't care about the fine details when they see an opportunity to save a bit of coin for their own benefit.

But you are correct no one will see the other side. The media only fires up the most Polarized Poltical views and the City of Toronto as a whole has not been properly served for funding by upper levels of Government. Now we have a Mayor who has solid support thru-out the City finally calling out the issue publically so we may actually move forward instead of chasing our tails.

We don't need to understand each others needs. We just need to build and keep building

 

[ShonTron]

So pointless debate is pointless, noone will ever see the other side's points ever.

Says the guy who makes the ridiculous claim "that downtown residents only care about their DRL and couldn't care less about what Scarborough gets (hopefully no transit forever)."

Shutting down this thread for a few days because it's just going to spiral into more straw men worthy of a DeBaremaeker rant.

 

[ShonTron]

Re-opened with a new thread title.

But please, no more repetitive debating points from either side of the subway/LRT argument.

 

[OneCity]

I think if we keep Tory in office we have a chance to actually get this built once and for all. Doug is all talk and no action, I mean just look at his "fantasy subway map".

I agree. That is the reality if Tory is re-elected although his existence may come down to how much help he receives from the Province in the next couple weeks to fund his`package` of lines thru out the entire City. Im certainly not thrilled about the subway chosen higher cost alignment, the lack of stops or the impedance of Smarttrack. But ill be quite happy to see it and the Eglinton East LRT getting built together. Tory has solid support and if he keeps power the subway design will complete and construction should start in his next term. Given the Provincial support on both sides It`s far more likely it gets built for better and for worse and well all move on. If somehow Tory stumbles at the election or the Province lets him down with funding of other projects things will get messy and drag out further across the board. For that reason alone and the fact we cant afford to keep starting over or doing nothing is enough for me to support moving on.

IMO Fordian politics will only be relevant should Tory lose control over what is currently on the table. Then it will be Subways vs. Transfers round two with no Smartrack in the way of either plan. Something I have no interest in seeing so that's another reason Ill support if all is funded.

 

[Sakraycore]

I agree. That is the reality if Tory is re-elected although his existence may come down to how much help he receives from the Province in the next couple weeks to fund his`package` of lines thru out the entire City. Im certainly not thrilled about the subway chosen higher cost alignment, the lack of stops or the impedance of Smarttrack. But ill be quite happy to see it and the Eglinton East LRT getting built together. Tory has solid support and if he keeps power the subway design will complete and construction should start in his next term. Given the Provincial support on both sides It`s far more likely it gets built for better and for worse and well all move on. If somehow Tory stumbles at the election or the Province lets him down with funding of other projects things will get messy and drag out further across the board. For that reason alone and the fact we cant afford to keep starting over or doing nothing is enough for me to support moving on.

IMO Fordian politics will only be relevant should Tory lose control over what is currently on the table. Then it will be Subways vs. Transfers round two with no Smartrack in the way of either plan. Something I have no interest in seeing so that's another reason Ill support if all is funded.

So why did they choose the higher cost alignment and cut the stops like Lawrence and Eglinton anyways? I mean, I don't think it really matters in the grand scheme of things (since barely anyone got on/off those stops anyways) but just curious. I guess it would make sense to add 2 stops before STC since it would help those areas to prosper as well, even if in the short run it doesn't make sense to have any stops in between.

But it may be too late to have this discussion anyhow, since they approved the McCowan alignment...

 

[OneCity]

So why did they choose the higher cost alignment and cut the stops like Lawrence and Eglinton anyways? I mean, I don't think it really matters in the grand scheme of things (since barely anyone got on/off those stops anyways) but just cruious.

Smarttrack optics and Smarttrack ridership impact was the main cause that has pushed the subway off the corridor. Avoiding RT shutdown during construction was also another for the underground option. Cost estimates for the subway on the RT corridor came back only approx. 500M cheaper (would have been my preference). Lawrence would have had good ridership but seems to be a casualty if the Tory plan moves forward. Tory voted to add it in the design which might say he doesn't intend to push Smarttrack, but the opposition wont approve anything subway related and even many subway supporters on council just want to go direct and be put to the debate to rest. Might get one more re-vote at 30% design as it was a coin flip but most councillors have their feet firmly planted at this point for this topic.

Having Smartrack stops on Finch and Lawrence could end up being pretty good depending how its integrated. Ellesmere was questionable on the RT but given the fact the City has approved more high rises at Midland & Ellesmere, and a Centennial College campus close by its unfortunate it has been removed from Smarttrack.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Is there not space in the RT corridor to pave a temporary transitway for busses whilst the RT is being replaced by subway tracks in the same corridor.

 

[Sakraycore]

In terms of the Lawrence station, I can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand, it is nice to have an express route to get to/from Kennedy to STC faster since less stops means faster travel times, but it IS pretty weird to have a 6km tunnel. Adding the Lawrence station wouldn't be a bad idea though, because I mean you want to help the whole route between Kennedy and STC to grow as well and not just STC.

 

[OneCity]

Is there not space in the RT corridor to pave a temporary transitway for busses whilst the RT is being replaced by subway tracks in the same corridor.

I guess you also need to take into account the space required to barricade away from the construction activities. An idea like rapid bus this might lead to another debate all together

In all seriousness there would also be conflict between Smarttrack station construction and the subway as well. Meaning one would either have to be delayed or both packaged under one contract, to the same contractor. Not sure our `leaders` have the coordinated capability to send the direction to study these type of details required to coordinate with both projects and start a review a temporary rapid busway in a timely manner.

 

[syn]

In terms of the Lawrence station, I can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand, it is nice to have an express route to get to/from Kennedy to STC faster since less stops means faster travel times, but it IS pretty weird to have a 6km tunnel. Adding the Lawrence station wouldn't be a bad idea though, because I mean you want to help the whole route between Kennedy and STC to grow as well and not just STC.

Yes, it's 'nice' to have an express route. The problem is that we shouldn't be spending $5 billion of limited transit dollars on something that's 'nice to have' and less flexible than what's currently in place. That's not even factoring in that the subway was never designed to be a 6KM suburban express route.

We should be spending money on things that are desperately needed, like the DRL.

Lawrence Station is essential for this extension to offer at least some value at some point (though it still doesn't make it acceptable).