News   Jun 28, 2024
 2.3K     2 
News   Jun 28, 2024
 1.5K     1 
News   Jun 28, 2024
 574     1 

Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

In terms of the Lawrence station, I can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand, it is nice to have an express route to get to/from Kennedy to STC faster since less stops means faster travel times, but it IS pretty weird to have a 6km tunnel. Adding the Lawrence station wouldn't be a bad idea though, because I mean you want to help the whole route between Kennedy and STC to grow as well and not just STC.

Having stops occur every two kilometres is more than a reasonable request. A stop at Brimley-Eglinton and a stop at McCowan-Lawrence fits that standard and both stations would be well used. It's worth it to advocate to add them in if we're already building a $4 billion subway. After all, what's another $300 million to get it done right.
 
Having stops occur every two kilometres is more than a reasonable request. A stop at Brimley-Eglinton and a stop at McCowan-Lawrence fits that standard and both stations would be well used. It's worth it to advocate to add them in if we're already building a $4 billion subway. After all, what's another $300 million to get it done right.

Hopefully. But as long as Tory is in charge Smarttrack will likely be a thing and additional stops will be very difficult. I just don't see the "subway opposition" offering anything remotely close to this. Only chance would likely be DoFo and hard to say if he'll run or even have enough support to come close to Tory. The recent council vote against the Lawrence stop design has made it bleak should Tory regain power.

So as crazy as it is to build a one stop tunneled subway, it would be just as crazy re-open a debate. That may seem like a great idea on the surface but the reality is there would be a fierce political reaction to follow like weve never seen and costs will rise on any options as years and decades keep passing. At this point I just want to see the Province step up to complete funding the plans on the table.
 
Last edited:
Having stops occur every two kilometres is more than a reasonable request. A stop at Brimley-Eglinton and a stop at McCowan-Lawrence fits that standard and both stations would be well used. It's worth it to advocate to add them in if we're already building a $4 billion subway. After all, what's another $300 million to get it done right.

Lawrence East Station alone is expected cost $300 Million. For both Brimley and Lawrence, we'd be looking at a cost of at least $500 (if Brimley station is unusually inexpensive). The City would have to raise the funds to construct these additional stations, which is unlikely to happen.
 
I wonder if the city has the authority to have these stations built as part of the development on top? Make it part of the conditions in order to allow for the developer to rezone and permit . Even if the costs were split at least the developer would be forced to include the station as part of their buildings.
I recall Tory selling airtime for the ect so a successful deal for the sse would be a huge win
 
A stop at Brimley-Eglinton and a stop at McCowan-Lawrence fits that standard and both stations would be well used.

McCowan-Lawrence - definitely. Brimley-Eglinton is the one that doesn't make a lot of sense, since the LRT is also going to include a stop there, and it's only about a kilometer away from the Kennedy station (which is actually halfway between Kennedy and Midland).
 
I wonder if the city has the authority to have these stations built as part of the development on top? Make it part of the conditions in order to allow for the developer to rezone and permit . Even if the costs were split at least the developer would be forced to include the station as part of their buildings.
I recall Tory selling airtime for the ect so a successful deal for the sse would be a huge win

This definitely isn't possible if we're taking a standard development with one or two condos; it'd cost the developer too much relative to the total project costs, which typically range from $500 Million to $1.5 Billion for condo towers.
 
This definitely isn't possible if we're taking a standard development with one or two condos; it'd cost the developer too much relative to the total project costs, which typically range from $500 Million to $1.5 Billion for condo towers.

probably not the full cost but perhaps a percentage of it based on the size of the rezoning application. Then again with my dealings with developers whom have developed condos over subway stations their experience dealing with TTC red tape and officials have been lacklustre to say the least. TTC themselves need to cut the red tape and be less of a dick when it comes to coordination between themselves and neighbouring developers/contractors
 
If we're going to do it, might as well do it right. Kennedy-STC express can be the first phase, but it should be infilled and extended:

xE2W362.jpg
 
And better yet split off of Line 2 and have an express like service along the waterfront to get downtown faster, and relieve both Lines 1 and 2.
 
Here is one thing I don't understand in Toronto: Assume we are building this express extension (it isn't worth it as we all know but the politics will push it through). Why would we build a 6km tunnel that follows the street grid? If we are tunnelling, why wouldn't we get the tunnel boring machines to burrow in a NE direction and use the shortest distance to get there. Yes we would need to build emergency exits and substations but those could be done at major intersections and through expropriation of land. Wouldn't that reduce the costs significantly? If we could save 1km of tunnelling that would be something like $400-500M savings, enough to at least add 1-2 more stations to the line or extend it further NE, at least to Centennial College.
 
There are myriad issues in this thread.

I'm sure I've contributed thoughts before, but will restate and contemporize them here.

On whether the extension should be built:

This is a legitimate debate, and it does not service the cause of good policy to have extremists at either end playing fast and loose w/the facts.

Steve Munro, who has expressed a clear preference for the LRT/Transit City version has conceded there are merits in going with a subway extension, although it would
clearly not be his first choice, and the express version of the line, in combination w/Smart Track makes a so/so case worse.

Let's break this down shall we.

In Favour of the line:

The number one argument is simply that reconstruction/replacement is necessary (of the current SRT) and that replacing the lost capacity during a closure of 2-3.5 years would be very challenging and likely inconvenient for existing riders.

Two, the current line is over capacity, so we know, as there is a parallel bus service that there is not only greater demand that what the SRT serves, but to a near certainty, latent demand as yet untapped.

Three, the oft-cited comparison in passenger volumes of demand for a subway are disingenuous in so far as no line's volume is measured based on that at its outermost stations, which will by definition have lower volume.

The traffic numbers, by global standards, and even more so, North American ones aren't unreasonable, though they do skew to the low side.

Four, if built w/additional stations, there may be opportunity for greater/easier access to a major hospital (trip generator) and possibly the removal or reduction of some bus services providing a partial operating offset.

Five, by historic standards, volumes will be much higher than outer reaches of the B-D line when first built.

****

Against the line:

As proposed, it has only one station added.

This means many existing riders will be inconvenienced, ridership will be lower than in versions w/more stations, there is unlikely to be any material benefit in terms of bus service reduction/removal.

The line is more expensive than originally stated, and more expensive by some measure than the LRT option.

It will serve fewer people in terms of direct access than the full LRT to Malvern version in terms of catchment area.

It therefore serves fewer vulnerable, low-income folks as well.

The current version w/only one station just doesn't make sense, the speed of operation benefits are negligible and it the costs savings are partially offset by the need for additional emergency exits.

****

Clouding the debate

Figures are fudged and misrepresented by both sides

Cost figures are altered by 'yard accommodation costs'

In the case of the above, the yard for LRT has been cancelled and its costs were tied in w/Sheppard LRT which itself has an future TBD.

While the subway yard capacity required to serve an SSE has now been purchased, and will likely be built out regardless to serve a DRL.

Its an open question as to what portion of those costs should then be charged to the SSE project.

The line makes more sense w/o Smart Track at Lawrence.

Smart Track @ Lawrence can't co-exist w/the LRT option anyway, so far as I understand.

Finally, Scarborough General Hospital is the main argument to me for choosing an SSE (obviously contingent on a station to serve it).

Said campus will be rebuilt, w/in 15 years, the only question is whether that will occur at the current location.

If it does not, the rationale for the SSE crumbles, in my mind; if it does, the rationale is likely enhanced, as I expect a replacement hospital to be materially larger, w/higher patient volumes, visitors and employment levels.

********

My 2 cents, the argument for the SSE is sound, subject to including 2 additional stations, removing/reducing select bus services, no Smart Track @ Lawrence, and yard accommodation costs being pro-rated to the capacity required for the extension. The further fiat being the upside cost is hard capped at 4B.

That said, an LRT alternative is a legitimate choice; and the preferred choice if the hospital is relocated, or the SSE built in non-viable fashion.


***

The Final Word: The Relief Line is a much higher priority than either of these projects, give or take the SRT's expiry date.
 
Last edited:
Great summary. I also agree that it makes more sense to build the station at Lawrence for the subway and not Go RER (There is no SmartTrack). RER is regional rail, so it is utterly dumb to have stops every 2-4 km. RER should have stops 5-8km apart. The subway is city rail and should have stops 1.5-2km apart. The better compromise would be to cancel the additional stops on GO RER in the city as they are in industrial areas with very low ridership potential (existing Lawrence E, Ellesmere and Midland stations are some of the least used stations in the city). Use the money saved to add Lawrence as a stop and if cheaper tunnelling or cut/cover can be used to save costs, take the subway to Centennial college.
 
If we're going to do it, might as well do it right. Kennedy-STC express can be the first phase, but it should be infilled and extended:

xE2W362.jpg

Don't get me wrong I like this. But it's far more likely Sheppard will be connected as a loop down the road and the Eglinton East LRT will likely see an extension from UTSC to Malvern TC before the Sheppard subway is ever extended. If Tory remains and Eglinton East gets under construction I would expect the Malvern LRT extension to be a priority election item in 2022.
 
Here is one thing I don't understand in Toronto: Assume we are building this express extension (it isn't worth it as we all know but the politics will push it through). Why would we build a 6km tunnel that follows the street grid? If we are tunnelling, why wouldn't we get the tunnel boring machines to burrow in a NE direction and use the shortest distance to get there. Yes we would need to build emergency exits and substations but those could be done at major intersections and through expropriation of land. Wouldn't that reduce the costs significantly? If we could save 1km of tunnelling that would be something like $400-500M savings, enough to at least add 1-2 more stations to the line or extend it further NE, at least to Centennial College.

There were discussions about doing this at one point, following the old Canadian Northern ROW or its vestiges, which can be mostly seen on Google, except where the subdivisions have trampled them.

There were a number of challenges, in terms of arriving at the ROW via either the existing SRT route or Midland and the turning radii required.

Questions also were raised about the required depth to not disturb adjacent homes, assuming no mass expropriation along the route.

I don't know how detail the analysis got, but I know the option was considered at least peripherally and discounted.

I think its also a function of the assumption not only that more than one station would be built, but the continued assumption that if the decision is made to build w/o add-on stations, that will be changed in the future.

Though that is entirely speculation on my part.
 

Back
Top