Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[jje1000]

From what I heard, sounds like Ainslie got some good points across.

Kind of a shame that the panel wasn't publicized more, and that it happened to close to the vote. You usually need a few days for this (even with media coverage) to percolate out into the general public.

 

[gweed123]

From what I heard, sounds like Ainslie got some good points across.

Kind of a shame that the panel wasn't publicized more, and that it happened to close to the vote. You usually need a few days for this (even with media coverage) to percolate out into the general public.

The reality is though at this point it's not a public information session that's needed. It's the councillors who will actually be voting who need the information session.

 

[Rainforest]

It wasn't the staff report that was wrong in that case. It was the Star reporter who misread the numbers.

Yes and no. The staff contributed to that mistake, by reporting unusual metrics, daily riders instead of daily rides.

Staff estimated the subway would save five minutes off travel times between STC and Kennedy due to the elimination of station in between. And if you're travelling past Kennedy, the elimination of the transfer saves up to 3 more minutes, so that's 8 minutes in total for this subset of riders. Since the numbers are in comparison to the existing RT, not the LRT plan, they don't account for the riders on Lawrence and Northeast Scarborough who who will see their commute time increased compared to the LRT.

These numbers are not imaginary or created out of thin air like yours. They were produced by knowledgeable people based on their analysis of the proposed alignment. Variables like how quickly a vehicle can make a trip without stopping (versus how quickly the current vehicles do make the trip) are fairly well understood by those doing the planning. So if you wish to reject their findings in favour of your own fictitious version of reality, and just assume that the real savings are actually double because somehow you know better, then I can't help you.

Since you are clearly disintrested in discussing the numbers, and keep referring to authority, I can't help you. We'll have to agree to disagree.

While you're at it, feel free to also keep pushing your Brimley alignment as if it would save money and travel time, even though staff concluded that it's only 200 metres shorter than McCowan.

Brimley alignment should, at least, be considered. It has three potential advantages: 1) shorter and cheaper, not by much, but those $150 million still count; 2) it might be cheaper to add a Lawrence East station because it wouldn't need to be too deep; 3) You can add a light rail line from the Brimley STC station going eastward in the SRT corridor, and thus get more stops and better service within the "precinct".

I cannot guarantee that there are no hidden problems with that alignment, but it was a perfectly reasonable proposal to make, for further analysis. That said, I doubt that the Brimley option will be on the table going forward.

 

[amnesiajune]

Those comparisons are far, far from accurate. The entire TTC system sees just over 1,000,000 daily trips. No way over 3/4 use the downtown loop every day. They show 98,000 trips on the Sheppard subway, while we know less than 50,000 trips are made on that line daily.

It's comparing station usage, so each trip gets counted at least twice - once for each station that it uses. For example, a trip from Scarborough Centre to Union would currently use four stations - STC, Kennedy, Bloor-Yonge and Union. With the subway it uses three (no use of Kennedy).

 

[Rainforest]

Such a STC-centric plan does not reflect the actual travel patters of Scarborough residents. For all the hoopla about a "forced transfer" at Kennedy, what this plan does is create a forced hub at STC while doing little to attract new riders. All that dark blue you see all over Scarborough shows that even for trips within Scarborough, STC is not the centre of the universe that its made out to be.

Looking at the proposed route map, it can be seen that the grid of routes serving major arterials remains in place. The majority of riders travelling within Scarborough will not need to go to STC to transfer to another bus, they will be able to do that at major intersections just as they do now. The subway extension will not improve such trips, but it will not make them worse either.

As of the huge 34-bay terminal, yes it is a problem and that problem arises from the removal of the Sheppard station. Had the Sheppard station been retained, the bus load would be distributed almost evenly between the two stations.

 

[epcjay]

Did they say which routes are going to go to STC? Does 34 bus bays also include regional transit? GO transit itself uses 7 minimum , while megabus uses 1, and the tourbus to the casino can make use of 1. That leaves 27 for TTC buses.

Currently 15 are being used. 95 York Mills stop over, requiring 2. 190 will be eliminated, but 285 will replace that and they will add 253 for the steeles to pioneer village route requiring 1

Midland will not route to STC.

So that would require of a total of 16 bus bays + 9 for regional transit = 25. What else are they routing there? Break out the 134A B and C to their own bays?

 

[Rainforest]

Did they say which routes are going to go to STC? Does 34 bus bays also include regional transit? GO transit itself uses 6 minimum, while megabus uses 1, and the tourbus to the casino can make use of 1. That leaves 28 for TTC buses.

Currently 15 are being used. 95 York Mills stop over, requiring 2. 190 will be eliminated, but 285 will replace that and they will add 253 for the steeles to pioneer village route requiring 1

Midland will not route to STC.

So that would require of a total of 16 bus bays + 8 for regional transit = 24. What else are they routing there?

The map is here (Page 130):

http://ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commiss...Steps_on_the_Scarborough_Subway_Extension.pdf

Yes, the 34 bays include those for regional transit.

I assume they are building some reserve bays, in order to accommodate future growth in service levels, and/or have some spare bays for the renovation periods.

 

[Leo_Chan]

The map is here (Page 130):

http://ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commiss...Steps_on_the_Scarborough_Subway_Extension.pdf

Yes, the 34 bays include those for regional transit.

I assume they are building some reserve bays, in order to accommodate future growth in service levels, and/or have some spare bays for the renovation periods.

There are plans of a YRT bus route going from Markham to UTSC, so having an intermediate stop at STC makes sense. It would be considered a regional bus

 

[epcjay]

So from the sounds of it, 34 doesn't sound absurd when it's supporting the current levels+ leaving a some for expansion or contingency

 

[WislaHD]

So from the sounds of it, 34 doesn't sound absurd when it's supporting the current levels+ leaving a some for expansion or contingency

No, it is not.

We are gerrymandering most of Scarborough's bus routes to one station in order to serve one boondoggle of a subway extension.

One thing that hasn't received much attention is how that many buses is going to make STC a frustrating transit hub for users. All those buses are also not going to make STC a nicer place to be, if you ask me.

Plus of course, the plan has people in buses for longer than they were before. I don't know about other people, but buses are my least favorite part of my daily transit commute.

 

[nhui06]

If they do go with the Subway, what are the chances of them adding back the Lawrence East subway stop? I believe that station will be used quite often (there is the Scarborough Hospital in the area for one), and it also gets rid of that 'one stop subway' tag.

 

[WislaHD]

If they do go with the Subway, what are the chances of them adding back the Lawrence East subway stop? I believe that station will be used quite often (there is the Scarborough Hospital in the area for one), and it also gets rid of that 'one stop subway' tag.

According to David Miller's recent interview on MetroMorning, the Lawrence East stop (on the proposed route, at McCowan) is prohibitively expensive, due to the geology under the site.

I haven't seen any discussion of those costs for Lawrence East in reports, but I can't say I was actively looking for that either. So the question is, do we have any staff reports confirming David Miller's claim?

 

[Leo_Chan]

If they do go with the Subway, what are the chances of them adding back the Lawrence East subway stop? I believe that station will be used quite often (there is the Scarborough Hospital in the area for one), and it also gets rid of that 'one stop subway' tag.

IMO, Sheppard East is more important than Lawrence East. However, it will be even more expensive (TBM under 401) while Lawrence East actually makes sense with a tunnel already going under it.

 

[WislaHD]

Council Meeting on Scarboough Subway is ongoing.

 

[salsa]

As of the huge 34-bay terminal, yes it is a problem and that problem arises from the removal of the Sheppard station. Had the Sheppard station been retained, the bus load would be distributed almost evenly between the two stations.

Exactly. STC needs to start getting decentralized because this is getting ridiculous. Both the 3-stop subway or the LRT would have done that.