Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[TheTigerMaster]

The delta between the subway and LRT option for Scarborough is only $500 million. Downgrade Finch West and Sheppard East to shoulder BRT lanes and you have your $500 million right there. It would still be rapid transit, and there would be a subway, and there would be an LRT. I would venture to say that most people would have been much happier with that compromise than the LRT-only or subway-only plans that have been floated by both camps in Council.

Honestly, I would prefer to leave the ECLRT, FWLRT and SELRT the way it is and raise the $500 Million extra. If that money can't be raised, just maintain the status quo. I'm not willing to downgrade Finch and Sheppard to BRT so that we could have a subway in Scarborough that has marginal benefits over the current SRT replacement plan.

 

[SJD_Toronto]

Honestly, I would prefer to leave the ECLRT, FWLRT and SELRT the way it is and raise the $500 Million extra. If that money can't be raised, just maintain the status quo. I'm not willing to downgrade Finch and Sheppard to BRT so that we could have a subway in Scarborough that has marginal benefits over the current SRT replacement plan.

I agree with you.

 

[sixrings]

honestly, i would prefer to leave the eclrt, fwlrt and selrt the way it is and raise the $500 million extra. If that money can't be raised, just maintain the status quo. I'm not willing to downgrade finch and sheppard to brt so that we could have a subway in scarborough that has marginal benefits over the current srt replacement plan.

agreed

 

[innsertnamehere]

Harris's gifts just keep coming to bite us in the ass.

 

[Rainforest]

Had Karen Stintz and the Left part of Council not put all of her (their) focus on restoring the Transit City plan, but instead worked on a more realistic plan like a Bloor-Danforth extension to Sheppard, I'm willing to bet tunneling up to Scarborough Town Centre would have begun by now. Like you said, Politics.

That is probably true. But, centrists on the council including Stintz were too busy trying to reach a compromise with Ford based on a partial extension of Sheppard subway. Several plans like "Sheppard subway to Vic Park plus Finch W and Finch W BRT" or "Sheppard subway to Vic Park and to Downsview" were floated (and got rejected by Ford). They probably overlooked the Danforth extension option.

Anyway, it is the mayor who is supposed to lead, and the case of transit, he failed on all accounts. Stintz is just trying to achieve something in this difficult situation. IMO, her approach is much more reasonable.

 

[gweed123]

Honestly, I would prefer to leave the ECLRT, FWLRT and SELRT the way it is and raise the $500 Million extra. If that money can't be raised, just maintain the status quo. I'm not willing to downgrade Finch and Sheppard to BRT so that we could have a subway in Scarborough that has marginal benefits over the current SRT replacement plan.

But you're willing to spend an extra $500 million on a couple LRT plans that have marginal benefits over BRT? I shouldn't have even used the word downgrade, because from a network usability perspective, BRT lanes on Sheppard and Finch would be far more useful.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Had Karen Stintz and the Left part of Council not put all of her (their) focus on restoring the Transit City plan, but instead worked on a more realistic plan like a Bloor-Danforth extension to Sheppard, I'm willing to bet tunneling up to Scarborough Town Centre would have begun by now. Like you said, Politics.

That's revisionist - Stintz et al did attempt to drive a discussion on the BD extension but it was turned down by Metrolinx at the time (not to mention Ford himself). At that particular juncture, the decision a binary one: whether to go with the mayor's plan or the original agreement with Metrolinx.

If you want to talk about realism, let's start with who got us in this predicament in the first place for his realistic plans - and don't tell me that isn't "politics".

re: 500M

If we have a couple of 500M around, we should a) extend BD; b) convert Sheppard subway to an LRT to eliminate the transfer and c) find ways (selective elevation, perhaps) to speed up the Sheppard line. Besides, if extending the BD is what it takes to get Scarborough on board with the new fund sources, so be it - it's an investment that can be justified by existing ridership alone.

AoD

 

[TheTigerMaster]

But you're willing to spend an extra $500 million on a couple LRT plans that have marginal benefits over BRT? I shouldn't have even used the word downgrade, because from a network usability perspective, BRT lanes on Sheppard and Finch would be far more useful.

Yes. LRT is far more permanent than BRT. Once it's there it will be there for the rest of our lives. With BRT there is noting stopping Ford from removing the paint from the road for something stupid like a Finch Subway. And then there are the obvious benefits of LRT over BRT, which should be self explanatory to UTers. The FWLRT and SELRT will be far more beneficial for Toronto than a 5 KM subway extension.

 

[gweed123]

Yes. LRT is far more permanent than BRT. Once it's there it will be there for the rest of our lives. With BRT there is noting stopping Ford from removing the paint from the road for something stupid like a Finch Subway. And then there are the obvious benefits of LRT over BRT, which should be self explanatory to UTers. The FWLRT and SELRT will be far more beneficial for Toronto than a 5 KM subway extension.

I understand the rationale behind the permanence argument, but what I don't get is why people are insisting on LRT on these corridors when the capacity that LRT offers is quite frankly overkill for the foreseeable future. You're spending $500+ million more for capacity that you don't need. On top of that, you're also forcing transfers on both ends, particularly on Finch.

And if there does come a time when the Sheppard Subway can be extended, great. Take out the BRT lanes and do a streetscape redesign.

I do find it funny though that those advocating for LRT criticize those advocating for a subway on Sheppard on the basis of "it's beyond what the demand justifies". Well guess what? The same argument holds true for LRT on Sheppard. You don't need to spend $950 million to move 3,100 pphpd, when you can spend half that amount and still move just as many people just as quickly.

If you're really worried about Ford ripping up lanes, build a damn Rapidway like York Region is doing. You'd still be saving a bundle.

 

[rbt]

I understand the rationale behind the permanence argument, but what I don't get is why people are insisting on LRT on these corridors when the capacity that LRT offers is quite frankly overkill for the foreseeable future. You're spending $500+ million more for capacity that you don't need. On top of that, you're also forcing transfers on both ends, particularly on Finch.

Most of that $500M has to do with making the transfers to the subway easier. Building an equivalent underground transfer station for buses would also add $500M to the price (possibly more).

Leaving LRT on the surface and having a surface level connection like you find at Bathurst station would remove much of the $500M from the price. Much of the motivation for extra spending on Sheppard is we want dedicated lanes and don't seem to feel like widening the bridge.

Anyway, the rolling stock (bus or lrt) doesn't make much difference to me but I do wish they were compared with equivalent configurations.

 

[gweed123]

Most of that $500M has to do with making the transfers to the subway easier. Building an equivalent underground transfer station for buses would also add $500M to the price (possibly more).

Leaving LRT on the surface and having a surface level connection like you find at Bathurst station would remove much of the $500M from the price. Much of the motivation for extra spending on Sheppard is we want dedicated lanes and don't seem to feel like widening the bridge.

Anyway, the rolling stock (bus or lrt) doesn't make much difference to me but I do wish they were compared with equivalent configurations.

That's true, but even the per km cost of at-grade LRT is substantially higher than what it is for BRT.

And one of the big reasons why the LRT is going underground isn't just the ease of transfer, it's also to avoid the 404. I've demonstrated how in the past buses get can over the 404 without having to widen the bridge(s). That same setup can't be easily applied to LRT, but it can be done easily with BRT.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I understand the rationale behind the permanence argument, but what I don't get is why people are insisting on LRT on these corridors when the capacity that LRT offers is quite frankly overkill for the foreseeable future. You're spending $500+ million more for capacity that you don't need. On top of that, you're also forcing transfers on both ends, particularly on Finch.

And if there does come a time when the Sheppard Subway can be extended, great. Take out the BRT lanes and do a streetscape redesign.

I do find it funny though that those advocating for LRT criticize those advocating for a subway on Sheppard on the basis of "it's beyond what the demand justifies". Well guess what? The same argument holds true for LRT on Sheppard. You don't need to spend $950 million to move 3,100 pphpd, when you can spend half that amount and still move just as many people just as quickly.

If you're really worried about Ford ripping up lanes, build a damn Rapidway like York Region is doing. You'd still be saving a bundle.

We also need to consider the reality of the political situation. "Second class" transit like BRT won't be an easy sell in Scarborough.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

We also need to consider the reality of the political situation. "Second class" transit like BRT won't be an easy sell in Scarborough.

People already consider LRT second class, I don't however.

 

[gweed123]

We also need to consider the reality of the political situation. "Second class" transit like BRT won't be an easy sell in Scarborough.

If it's trading 2 LRTs for a subway and a BRT, I think most Scarberians would call that even. Most would probably even prefer that.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

People already consider LRT second class, I don't however.

I don't and you don't and 95% of the people on UT don't. But we're the exception. Most aren't very knowlegable about transit issues and consider LRT to be second class. It's unfortunate that Ford "canceled" the SELRT. If he hadn't it would be opening by now. We would have the oppertunity to show everyone that LRT is not "second class" transit.