Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[nfitz]

I wonder if they really did an impact study though of how many people living along the Danforth who used to say 'screw it, it's too busy' would start taking transit again. Much like what I would suspect would happen along Yonge should the DRL be built.

As someone who was taking the subway along Danforth in rush-hour frequently until recently (and even do occasionally when the streetcars are messed up, or I'm off somewhere), Danforth isn't generally at the point where you can't get on in the morning, unless there's been a service problem. The issue taking the subway along Danforth, is the nightmare of changing at Bloor-Yonge.

And the worst spot is west of Pape (not sure if it's east or west of Broadview). So the DRL from Danforth to Yonge will also relieve the worst of the load on Danforth. As will the extra capacity when the ATC is installed. And presumably a bit from when the regular full GO service is running from Union to Kennedy (which even now is only 17 minutes on some trips - as opposed to over 30 minutes on the subway, on the rare occasion that it doesn't sit forever trying to get into Kennedy).

 

[k10ery]

^yay, rbt.

Going forward, the best transit "investment" is probably fare integration

 

[nfitz]

Going forward, the best transit "investment" is probably fare integration

It may well be! Though I think Metrolinx may be concerned how much it would increase ridership on GO Trains on the already busiest piece of the lines.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I think Primove is an excellent idea. I appreciate that the boring machines are already bought so that's fine but any elevated/at grade section wouldn't have the ugly poles and wires all over the damn place. If Miller and his crowd want "complete streets" then sticking poles down the middle of the road and having wires all over the damn place that weren't there before doesn't help that cause. They are actually safer than catenary lines as wind can't blow the lines down and neither can an accident. Their power is from the road bed but is only activated when the train is over that section.

Not having to place all the damn wires saves a lot of time and time is money and would save a small fortune on the SRT conversion do to not having to fart around with the station roofs and elevation is much easier without having extended catenary poles.

Proprietary technology is not an issue in Toronto because we {and all our grandchildren} will be 6 feet under by the time the TTC ever purchases a rail product that isn't from Bombardier. Let's suppose that it is 2113 and the city is celebrating as it has finally finished it's enviornmental review for the DRL. In light of this historic event Toronto finally decides to let someone bid on a rail project where suppliers besides Bombardier may actually have a chance at landing it well proprietary technology will not be an issue. You see Alstrom has also come out with the exact same LRT vehicle with it's power supply from the roadway. Alstrom doesn't have much of a presence in NA which is dominated by Siemens and Bombardier but in Europe they are a large rail supplier and they have been quite successful in plying their catenary-free LRT there because cities don't want the visual "pollution" of overhead wires especially in the historic cores. I do not know if they are completely compatible or not but the technology seems the same as they too use standard LRT trains.

I actually contacted the Crosstown office about the Primove. She {Nicole} had never heard of the technology but I explained it and it's many advantages over catenary systems and she seemed genuinly impressed. I told her to look Primove up on the Bombardier website and to have a look at the videos and she said she would. She was quite intrigued by the notion of it and said she will do some research and discuss it with her superiors and planning dept. She said she would email me back by the end of the week at the latest.

She didn't give me the standard bureaucratic responses at all and she was surprised it had never come up. I mentioned to her about how they are already running the systems in Europe and still had catenary overhead in case they had to be used temporarily for another line that used catenarys.. I also mentioned how the Fraser Valley group railforthevalley which wants comprehensive LRT for the valley and not a 6km SkyTrain extension towards Langley , has brought up the Primove technology as their preferred choice if they win the day.

I was quite surprised because after our 10 minute talk I actually walked away thinking that she really did listen to me. It was a very positive response and a very pleasant conversation.

As for my comment about doubling the Metro system, I stand by it. Toronto will already have the track and some of the stations for a 23 km new Metro line built by 2015, they just want to make sure no one can afford to take it. Electrifying that 23 and adding another 5 stations could easily be done for a $1 billion. Of course the other expansions would require the idea of elevation, using current Hydro corridors and, wait for it, using it's current huge rail network to actually transport Torontonians and not just freight and people outside the city.

Toronto has a very enviable amount of rail corridor throughout the city and uses none of it for it's transit system, surely the only city on the planet that doesn't. That was one of the good ideas that came out of the OneCity Plan.

I honestly am amazed that they haven't looked at Primove. You would think that somebody at Metrolinx would have at least considered it. I'm just hoping that the woman you were talking to was just hired and may not be up to speed on prior discussions they've had.

Anyways, I seriously doubt that a move to Primove would be approved this late in the game, especially if it costs more.

 

[k10ery]

It may well be! Though I think Metrolinx may be concerned how much it would increase ridership on GO Trains on the already busiest piece of the lines.

Yup. Perhaps we need a #idlenomore protest to get our train lines back from the suburbanites. But until Metrolinx shows an ounce of interest in this, not much point

 

[M II A II R II K]

Maybe during rush hour only the TTC could have an express service from Kennedy to Union on the rail corridor so a large percentage of the Scarborough riders wouldn't have to bother with the LRT or BD subway altogether.

 

[gweed123]

I don't think that it should be an either/or choice between the DRL/elevated Eglinton East and GO REX. The truth of the matter is they're both needed.

And even if GO REX is implemented on the Lakeshore and Brampton-Markham corridors, the DRL will still be needed, because there will still be a boatload of local demand. And there will still be demand for a midtown crosstown line across most of Toronto.

 

[gweed123]

As someone who was taking the subway along Danforth in rush-hour frequently until recently (and even do occasionally when the streetcars are messed up, or I'm off somewhere), Danforth isn't generally at the point where you can't get on in the morning, unless there's been a service problem. The issue taking the subway along Danforth, is the nightmare of changing at Bloor-Yonge.

And the worst spot is west of Pape (not sure if it's east or west of Broadview). So the DRL from Danforth to Yonge will also relieve the worst of the load on Danforth. As will the extra capacity when the ATC is installed. And presumably a bit from when the regular full GO service is running from Union to Kennedy (which even now is only 17 minutes on some trips - as opposed to over 30 minutes on the subway, on the rare occasion that it doesn't sit forever trying to get into Kennedy).

I used to get on at Sherbourne, which theoretically would be the busiest station east of Yonge in terms of the number of passengers travelling through it. It's not as bad as the Yonge line, but the trains were still very full. I had to know where to stand on the platform to not have to sardine myself into a full car.

I do realize that grade-separating Eglinton East and running it as a single thru line would increase pressure at Eglinton-Yonge, but really it's just spreading the existing congestion around. Every new passenger transferring at Eglinton-Yonge is someone who isn't transferring at Bloor-Yonge. And Eglinton-Yonge can be designed with high volume transfers in mind, so it functions much more smoothly than Bloor-Yonge.

 

[rbt]

I don't think that it should be an either/or choice between the DRL/elevated Eglinton East and GO REX. The truth of the matter is they're both needed.

Both are needed but the order they are implemented in matters.

Do it in the wrong order and the city will be in serious pain for up to a decade.

And Eglinton-Yonge can be designed with high volume transfers in mind, so it functions much more smoothly than Bloor-Yonge.

The capacity of Yonge trains south of Bloor are the main constraint. It doesn't matter if the person boards at Finch, Sheppard, Eglinton, or Bloor if their destination is Dundas. Dwell times at Bloor aren't all that bad since TTC added the temporary barrier.

Encouraging people to take Eglinton makes intercepting them before they reach Yonge that much more difficult.

 

[gweed123]

Both are needed but the order they are implemented in matters.

Do it in the wrong order and the city will be in serious pain for up to a decade.

Based on the current pace, electrification should be done slightly before the DRL (within about 5 years). But obviously that's subject to a lot of change.

The capacity of Yonge trains south of Bloor are the main constraint. It doesn't matter if the person boards at Finch, Sheppard, Eglinton, or Bloor if their destination is Dundas. Dwell times at Bloor aren't all that bad since TTC added the temporary barrier.

Encouraging people to take Eglinton makes intercepting them before they reach Yonge that much more difficult.

Intercepting them before they reach Yonge won't really be a concern until the DRL is operational, and that would only be a concern if it stops at Danforth.

 

[rbt]

Intercepting them before they reach Yonge won't really be a concern until the DRL is operational, and that would only be a concern if it stops at Danforth.

I'm not sure I understand this statement. Yonge is, by many definitions, near capacity today making it a concern today. That we do not have any alternatives to Yonge is a problem. Encouraging more people to use Yonge or making it more difficult to intercept them is a problem.

 

[gweed123]

I'm not sure I understand this statement. Yonge is, by many definitions, near capacity today making it a concern today. That we do not have any alternatives to Yonge is a problem. Encouraging more people to use Yonge or making it more difficult to intercept them is a problem.

Sorry, I can see how that statement could be confusing. What I meant to say was that, until the DRL is built, whether people take Danforth or Eglinton, there isn't going to be another rapid transit route to intercept them before they reach Yonge. So either way, they're taking rapid transit to either Bloor-Yonge or Eglinton-Yonge. It's unfortunate that Yonge is bearing the brunt of the load, but it would be regardless of if Eglinton East was elevated or not. All that changes is where the brunt of the load is put on.

So until the DRL is built, and assuming Eglinton East is grade-separated, it really doesn't make much of a difference from an 'overloading Yonge' perspective, because those passengers are going to get dumped onto Yonge either way. It's not until after the DRL is built that it really makes a difference, because having it stop just at Danforth could create an imbalance (Danforth passengers have an alternative, Eglinton passengers don't). If it is extended all the way to Eglinton, then again it shouldn't really make much of a difference, because then both have the option of avoiding Yonge.

Hopefully that makes more sense, haha.

 

[kEiThZ]

I am tired of the scaremongering.

1) I still don't believe the Tories have a chance in 2015.
2) If they do come to power, I am finding it hard to believe they would can a subway. They might can a whole bunch of LRT lines. But can a subway that's been promoted by Conservative politicians at every level? They may be thick, but even they are well-aware that political futures are almost entirely determined in the province's urban areas and more specifically in the GTA. And they also know they have a better chance of getting seats in the 416 burbs than anywhere else in the 416. They would have to be monumentally stupid to toss their entire political future away.

A suburb to STC also has big implications for Durham region. STC will become an even more prominent GO hub. That won't be lost on Conservative pols. It's not the 90s anymore, where Mike Harris could play the 905 against the 416. The 905 has seen its population swell and more and more of them are commuting into the core and increasingly using the TTC. Cutting 416 transit projects, particularly subways, has strong regional implications, which could well cost them votes in the 905.


So sorry. I don't buy this nonsense that we can't discuss changes because every nut and bolt must be in place for fear that the next Conservative government might completely undo all transit planning in the 416.

Heck, I'd go so far as to argue that the politically safest choices for subways will be (in order):

1) Yonge North extension
2) BD East extension
3) DRL

I'd also add that I can see a PC government actually accelerating the GO electrification schedule to get it done in one term. Politically, it's the biggest bang for the buck. That's why I am always surprised that McGuinty never instructed Metrolinx to prioritize it.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Unfortunately the most needed subways run like this:

1. DRL
2. Yonge extension
3. Bloor east

With the cons, this would likely be their priority:
1. Eglinton
2. Sheppard
3. Yonge
4. Bloor east
5. DRL
6. Finch.

Any of the ones I didn't mention at the start shouldn't be subways, but chances are the Tories will want them anyways

What will get built:

1. Eglinton
2. (Maybe) Yonge extension

 

[kEiThZ]

Sorry. Don't buy that at all. You're suggesting that the Conservatives will propose turning every LRT line into a subway? Including ones that are already underway? I don't buy that.

I think they'd finish Eglinton and accept it as a fait accompli, especially if huge portions are already complete and about to enter service. I think what they might well do though is terminate the line at Kennedy and extend BD to STC instead. Worst case scenario? They terminate the line where the tunnel ends.

They'd probably can Finch and use the money to extend BD East, Yonge North and electrify the DRL. Beyond those three projects, their priority would be the DRL. You now hear even many Conservatives saying this line is needed. And given it's price tag, I figure that would the only TTC major project to be undertaken in a hypothetical PC government's second term.

And this would not really be a half bad plan. If I was given the choice today of a mostly electrified GO with all day service on most lines and REX on the busiest lines, with TTC fare integration in 5 years or a DRL in 10, I'd take the former. It would do far more for the residents of the entire region than the DRL. Heck, it would do more for every 416 resident who stays outside old Toronto than the DRL would. It could cut commute times to the core in half. And it would also focus the DRL as a proper downtown transit lines rather than just prioritizing relief of Yonge/Bloor and putting commuters first.

The great tragedy of this region isn't that we don't have more subways or LRTs. It's that we have a massive network of existing rail corridors that severely under-utilized and that we intend to severely under-utilize going forward.