Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[drum118]

When do construction costs ever go down?

When there is a lot of bidders hungry for work as well a storage of jobs on the market.

Also trying to get a foot in the door for bidding on future jobs. One reason you will see a big different in cost between first and second bidders as well rest of the bidders.

Don't forget TTC cost covers everything 100% that is needed for the line, not just the construction cost.

TTC does break the line into section for costing and bidding purpose to see if the line is over or under budget.

 

[rbt]

When do construction costs ever go down?

If we suddenly stopped building several billion per year in real-estate they might.

 

[dunkalunk]

There are two specific things that bother me from the TTC report it it's analysis of the subway option for SRT Replacement

1) They are missing a potential rapid transit station at the corner of Brimley and Eglinton. A station here would draw in ridership from newer adjacent development and could have a very transformative effects for the parking-haven that exists there now.

2) The argument that the subway goes through stable neighbourhoods. Whether or not the neighbourhoods are "Stable" There is going to be redevelopment pressure beside a rapid transit station regardless of where it is located. Toronto can do itself a favour by rezoning the areas around subway stations and increasing it's fare revenue.

 

[M II A II R II K]

The Lawrence subway stop would hit Scarborough General and the museum.

 

[nfitz]

There are two specific things that bother me from the TTC report it it's analysis of the subway option for SRT Replacement

1) They are missing a potential rapid transit station at the corner of Brimley and Eglinton. A station here would draw in ridership from newer adjacent development and could have a very transformative effects for the parking-haven that exists there now

That's a fairly minor factor in the analysis. They'd have to make some simple assumptions to do this simplified analysis. Presumably if they actually decided to study such an extension, there would be various studies done, at which time alignment and station locations would be reviewed.

 

[BurlOak]

That's a fairly minor factor in the analysis. They'd have to make some simple assumptions to do this simplified analysis. Presumably if they actually decided to study such an extension, there would be various studies done, at which time alignment and station locations would be reviewed.

Because of the curve from Eglinton to McCowan, and the fact that Stations are not on curves, it is probably not be possible to have a station at Brimley. Also, the current Kennedy station is close enough to Midland. Thus, I think the first new station probably would be Lawrence.

That may be an advantage of the idea to extend the B-D subway to Eglinton and Kingston Road instead. It is several kilometres shorter, and could have stations at Brimley, Eglinton GO, and Markham/Kingston. Maybe this would make sense when BRT is built on Kingston Road and when that GO line(Lakeshore East) runs more frequent service and has integrated service/fares with TTC.

 

[dunkalunk]

In response to something I saw earlier about reusing TBMs, we could use the same set of TBMs for 16 years if we build subway extensions in the following order:

1) B-D Extension to Scarborough Centre (2015-2019)
-Constructed
2) Sheppard West Subway extension to Downsview (2019-2023)
-Keeps TBM in-use and adds to the network while DRL is being constructed.
3) Yonge Extension to Richmond Hill (2023-2027)
-Would need to wait for construction of Eastern DRL to be complete to go into service to not overload the system.
4) Sheppard East Subway Extension to Scarborough Centre (2027-2031)
-By this point, demand built up through use of BRT on Sheppard will warrant the construction of a subway connection between Scarborough Centre and Don Mills. B-D Trains and Sheppard Trains could then be interlined

I've illustrated this in this Google Map: http://goo.gl/maps/BD0x1

The DRL, Eglinton Crosstown, and other projects would be constructed independently with their own TBMs due to significant technology differences between them. The DRL is a far more complicated project and would need to be constructed simultaneously regardless.

 

[nfitz]

Because of the curve from Eglinton to McCowan, and the fact that Stations are not on curves, it is probably not be possible to have a station at Brimley.

McCowan is about 160 metres east of Brimely. It's quite easy to have the station platform west of, and even slightly east of Brimley, and still not be on the curve onto McCowan. Hopefully if someone were to design something like this, they'd also design it in such a way to also allow for a future branch to be built carrying on down Eglinton towards Kingston Rad, so it doesn't create heartache in 50 to 100 years when that might make sense.

That may be an advantage of the idea to extend the B-D subway to Eglinton and Kingston Road instead. It is several kilometres shorter, and could have stations at Brimley, Eglinton GO, and Markham/Kingston. Maybe this would make sense when BRT is built on Kingston Road and when that GO line(Lakeshore East) runs more frequent service and has integrated service/fares with TTC.

Maybe indeed!

 

[gweed123]

In response to something I saw earlier about reusing TBMs, we could use the same set of TBMs for 16 years if we build subway extensions in the following order:

1) B-D Extension to Scarborough Centre (2015-2019)
-Constructed
2) Sheppard West Subway extension to Downsview (2019-2023)
-Keeps TBM in-use and adds to the network while DRL is being constructed.
3) Yonge Extension to Richmond Hill (2023-2027)
-Would need to wait for construction of Eastern DRL to be complete to go into service to not overload the system.
4) Sheppard East Subway Extension to Scarborough Centre (2027-2031)
-By this point, demand built up through use of BRT on Sheppard will warrant the construction of a subway connection between Scarborough Centre and Don Mills. B-D Trains and Sheppard Trains could then be interlined

I've illustrated this in this Google Map: http://goo.gl/maps/BD0x1

The DRL, Eglinton Crosstown, and other projects would be constructed independently with their own TBMs due to significant technology differences between them. The DRL is a far more complicated project and would need to be constructed simultaneously regardless.

I like it! Although I think York Region would want their subway extension moved way up that list. They're almost ready to build it (minus the funding). Waiting another decade would not go over very well.

If B-D to STC/Sheppard isn't possible, I'd maybe reconfigure it like this:

1) North Yonge Extension to Richmond Hill (2015-2020)
2) Sheppard West Extension (2020-2024)
3) Bloor-Danforth Extension to Kingston Rd (2024-2028)
3) Sheppard East Extension (2028-2033)

As long as the DRL is in it's final planning stages or early into construction by the time the Yonge extension opens, I think it should be fine. If anything, that would remove any remaining questioning of whether the DRL is needed.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I'd rather something like this happen:

Bloor Danforth extension to Sherway Garderns (2016-2018)
Yonge extension (2018-2022)
Sheppard West extension (2022-2024)

 

[BurlOak]

McCowan is about 160 metres east of Brimely. It's quite easy to have the station platform west of, and even slightly east of Brimley, and still not be on the curve onto McCowan.

I remember doing the geometry, and the curve begins a distance away from the intersection such that: d = R tan (x/2), where R is the radius of the curve and x is the angle between tangent sections (i.e. Eglinton and McCowan). The angle looks to be 60 to 70 degrees to me. The minimum Radius for the TTC is 300m (the Spadina Extension has a 310m radius for the Allen curve), but preferable is 600m or even 750m. (During the Spadina Extension EA revision, the increase in radius of the Sheppard curve from 485m to 600m was touted that it "Eliminates the need for 1.7 track-km, of restraining rail, two rail lubricators, and the associated ongoing track maintenance"). Thus, the distance from the Eglinton/McCowan intersection would be about 190m using the minimum radius and 380m with the desirable.

 

[ssiguy2]

Although ANYTHING is better than SkyTrain to LRT conversion it also begs the obvious question.............why are they going to tunnel to STC using subway when they can elevate it?

Elevation and at-grade Metros are the norm in the suburbs everywhere on the planet not the exception. Very few cities would even contemplate tunneling in the burbs but Toronto is damn and determined that no transit line blocks the view of the gas stations and Walmarts. As for this "elevation creates dead zones" crap one only has to look at Richmond. Richmond is a classic suburb but it's central area at Richmond Centre/No 3 Road it far more friendly now than when it was before the Canada Line went thru. They took out a lane of traffic, created new bikelanes under the pillons with wider sidewalks and the area has become very pedestrian friendly. When I was there not long ago I couldn't believe the difference. No 3 Road has gone from a wind swept suburban shopping strip and mall to a decidedly walkable one. The pillons and thinner road have created a "hectic" sort of look.

Condos and office buildings are going up right along the line with restaurants and cafes on the street. New greenery has been planted along the route and at the base of the support columns. The roadway has gone from a classic desolute suburban strip to quite a pedestrian and bicycling friendly one. By having high density along the route you also get pedestrian traffic walking to the SkyTrain.

Even the idea of going underground in the suburbs shows a complete contempt for taxpayers. Not that that really matters, Toronto will assume that the rest of Ontario taxpayers will joyfully pick up the tab.

 

[nfitz]

Thus, the distance from the Eglinton/McCowan intersection would be about 190m using the minimum radius and 380m with the desirable.

So use the minimum and put the platform west of Brimely. Or use two curves, and actually have the platform on a bit of an angle to Eglinton Avenue, similar to Broadview.

If the curve is right at the platform, they'll be having to slow anyway, so use of the minimum radius instead of desirable would make little difference.

 

[44 North]

Although ANYTHING is better than SkyTrain to LRT conversion it also begs the obvious question.............why are they going to tunnel to STC using subway when they can elevate it?

You mean elevate our subway trains that much of a distance? I'm for elevated rail in the windswept Scarberian landscape, but our HRT trains are too bloody big for that. It'd be noisy, large, imposing...the people wouldn't want it.

Regarding 'anything better than Skytrain to LRT', what's so wrong with that? LRT's versatility proves itself as being the winner. The initial cost is large, but the adaptability of light rail allows for potential through-routing transition to street level in-median. You can't achieve that with our subways or the 'ICTS' vehicles on other systems.

To be promoting elevated transit in the 'burbs, it'd be a wrong move to do so as part of our subway system IMO. Separate systems are the only way. As for replacement vehicles, LRT is the right choice. The first mistake with SRT/Go Urban was not following through on the plan to use LRT, the second mistake would be to continue using non-LRT vehicles.

 

[dunkalunk]

I'd rather something like this happen:

Bloor Danforth extension to Sherway Garderns (2016-2018)
Yonge extension (2018-2022)
Sheppard West extension (2022-2024)

The Sherway Gardens extension should not require a TBM. The entire thing could be built at-grade/trenched.