Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Solid Snake]

Besides if Olivia is smart, she comes out and interlines it with the Crosstown? The transfer is gone, which is what this is really about.

you'd need Eglinton east of Don Mills to be fully grade separated to do that. It would have to be either elevated, buried or at grade with "severe" restrictions to cars such as (no left turns, and priority lights with barriers that turns green when a train's approching)

 

[ehlow]

Besides if Olivia is smart, she comes out and interlines it with the Crosstown? The transfer is gone, which is what this is really about.

Ha ha... sorry but I doubt it. You keep bringing up connecting the Crosstown with SRT. No one has talked about that since 2010. There is very little chance of that happening now, even less than reverting to LRT.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

you'd need Eglinton east of Don Mills to be fully grade separated to do that. It would have to be either elevated, buried or at grade with "severe" restrictions to cars such as (no left turns, and priority lights with barriers that turns green when a train's approching)

Elevated is cheapest option. I don't like burial because I'm not a big big fan of underground LRT.

Ha ha... sorry but I doubt it. You keep bringing up connecting the Crosstown with SRT. No one has talked about that since 2010. There is very little chance of that happening now, even less than reverting to LRT.

It will be way harder to sell the SRT to the public if that does not happen

 

[ehlow]

Elevated is cheapest option. I don't like burial because I'm not a big big fan of underground LRT.

Elevated transit is a pie elevated in the sky pipe dream of the <30 people who post on this transit forum regularly, until at least one politician or someone in Metrolinx or the TTC actually mentions it. The Neptis report and the one Toronto Star article doesn't count.

No one on city council or Metrolinx has talked once about elevating Eglinton east as far as I've heard. It hasn't been mentioned at all yet in the mayoral election.

 

[BurlOak]

Elevated is cheapest option. I don't like burial because I'm not a big big fan of underground LRT.

It will be way harder to sell the SRT to the public if that does not happen

Any chance of connecting the SRT with ECLRT died on election night.

Both the Liberals and (lets assume) Chow would be at the beginning of their mandates and they could afford to lose a bit of political capital with the public to kill the B-D subway and save $1.5B.

 

[DB9]

Both the Liberals and (lets assume) Chow would be at the beginning of their mandates and they could afford to lose a bit of political capital with the public to kill the B-D subway and save $1.5B.

The Liberal's political capital in that area is flimsy at best. After-all it was an election more to rebuke Hudak than to endorse Wynne. Scarborough won't forgive them if they threaten to kill the BD subway extension, and that includes the area's Asian constituents that Chow is supposedly banking on.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Elevated transit is a pie elevated in the sky pipe dream of the <30 people who post on this transit forum regularly, until at least one politician or someone in Metrolinx or the TTC actually mentions it. The Neptis report and the one Toronto Star article doesn't count.

No one on city council or Metrolinx has talked once about elevating Eglinton east as far as I've heard. It hasn't been mentioned at all yet in the mayoral election.

So was Eglinton being underground and look what ford did. Anything can happen. Eglinton would be all done by next year if it was above ground but...

Any chance of connecting the SRT with ECLRT died on election night.

Both the Liberals and (lets assume) Chow would be at the beginning of their mandates and they could afford to lose a bit of political capital with the public to kill the B-D subway and save $1.5B.

..reality looks grim ehlow, so it looks like the SRT will be just the SRT.

 

[WislaHD]

Just a thought here but... how about interlining SELRT with the SRT?

 

[quicksilver]

Sorry, I just don't get why people would complain about Liberal Corruption, which is no worse then any other government, and then vote them. My problem is demanding a subway because everyone has one, and then voting for the party that only tepidly gave you one, and then saying the government does not work when city council votes again the subway again because said party now has a majority and the mayor will want SRT Scarborough is only an example of this. I'm sorry if I offended you. You're a great poster and I enjoy talking with you.

No, no offense. But like any other railfan in Toronto, or one issue campaigner, I felt my options were very limited. The Liberal are crooks, in practice. The PCs were crooks in waiting. The NDP didn't so much as peep a word about transit. So obviously my best option was just to make fun of Raymond Cho on my web site.

I moved to Scarborough in 2010 from St. Patrick Street downtown because I got a truly massive penthouse apt for about 20% of the per sq ft price of a downtown spot AND the SELRT was under construction. I felt it would sufficiently connect me with the rest of the city. I didn't contemplate that Ford would actually win the election and then cancel the SELRT, or that nobody on council would be swift enough to realize he didn't have the authority to do so.

I don't care what sort of rail transit they build as long as it gets to east Scarborough and serves the communities that are cut off from from the rest of the city. (The One Toronto electrified GO plan would be a nice addition would be a nice addition but would not solve the problems of east Scarborough, or the communities the DRL proposes to serve.) When Miller was still presiding and proposed Transit City, somebody tied its conception to the riots that plagued Northeast Paris. I'm not saying people rioted over transportation, only that they are less likely to be violent if they are engaged/connected to the city and have opportunities. I think both the SELRT and FWLRT are critical for Toronto to avoid increased ghettoization in its northern outer suburbs. Councilors like Mammo are hurting their communities' long term chances of success by sticking to the "roads are for cars" mentality.

Canada doesn't even have its own car companies, and Ontario is not a gas producer. There's employment there but the profits are leaving the province. Why aren't we building a rail transit based economy for Ontario, taking over VIA, pushing rail back to our vacation spots on Georgian Bay, Lakes Huron and Erie, and Niagara. We should be building the trains, producing the steel, electrifying transportation, all for ourselves? Let the trucks have the roads and highways and pay for their upkeep. I'd rather sit on a train and drink.

 

[Rainforest]

Provincial Liberals will stick to Scarborough subway. Flip-flopping again will cost them public disappointment and bad press, whereas sticking to the current plan costs nothing.

If the city council decides to withdraw the city's portion of subway funding, then Metrolinx will build a shorter subway using the reduced money pool, and terminate it at STC.

Another consequence of such turn is that Sheppard LRT will have to be re-routed. It does not make sense to leave a 1.7 km gap between the subway terminus and the LRT line. If the subway is not coming to Sheppard, then LRT will have to divert from Sheppard and connect to the subway.

In that case, they might even build just the eastern section of LRT; start it at STC and run to the zoo and Malvern Centre.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Provincial Liberals will stick to Scarborough subway. Flip-flopping again will cost them public disappointment and bad press, whereas sticking to the current plan costs nothing.

Because that has ever stopped them before. See Gas Plants.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

No, no offense. But like any other railfan in Toronto, or one issue campaigner, I felt my options were very limited. The Liberal are crooks, in practice. The PCs were crooks in waiting. The NDP didn't so much as peep a word about transit. So obviously my best option was just to make fun of Raymond Cho on my web site.

I moved to Scarborough in 2010 from St. Patrick Street downtown because I got a truly massive penthouse apt for about 20% of the per sq ft price of a downtown spot AND the SELRT was under construction. I felt it would sufficiently connect me with the rest of the city. I didn't contemplate that Ford would actually win the election and then cancel the SELRT, or that nobody on council would be swift enough to realize he didn't have the authority to do so.

I don't care what sort of rail transit they build as long as it gets to east Scarborough and serves the communities that are cut off from from the rest of the city. (The One Toronto electrified GO plan would be a nice addition would be a nice addition but would not solve the problems of east Scarborough, or the communities the DRL proposes to serve.) When Miller was still presiding and proposed Transit City, somebody tied its conception to the riots that plagued Northeast Paris. I'm not saying people rioted over transportation, only that they are less likely to be violent if they are engaged/connected to the city and have opportunities. I think both the SELRT and FWLRT are critical for Toronto to avoid increased ghettoization in its northern outer suburbs. Councilors like Mammo are hurting their communities' long term chances of success by sticking to the "roads are for cars" mentality.

Canada doesn't even have its own car companies, and Ontario is not a gas producer. There's employment there but the profits are leaving the province. Why aren't we building a rail transit based economy for Ontario, taking over VIA, pushing rail back to our vacation spots on Georgian Bay, Lakes Huron and Erie, and Niagara. We should be building the trains, producing the steel, electrifying transportation, all for ourselves? Let the trucks have the roads and highways and pay for their upkeep. I'd rather sit on a train and drink.

This is a great post with a lot of info. I hear you completely now on this. The PCs really have no concept of urban living being the norm now. I want to see something built for Scarborough too, I liked the SELRT and was fine with the subway. And I agree 100 percent about transit de isolating the corners of the city from each other.

 

[quicksilver]

More on this transit economy. I would go so far as to say Ontario could plan, in the long term, a reverse of the Great American Streetcar Scandal, as portrayed in Martha Olson and Jim Klein's documentary film Taken for a Ride (available on Youtube as of 2013). There has been criticism of this film but GM, Firestone, paving and oil companies were found guilty in California of conspiracy, and it was a decision that held up to appeal.

Ontario is a different jurisdiction, but because there is a continental market you have to assume similar practices were and maybe are in operation here as well. Ask yourself why it is certain politicians cry "war on car" every time the Toronto wants to replace a road lane with a transit lane? Why, doesn't that sound a little weird. How long would it take for you to count how many roads there are in Toronto? How long would it take you to count how many truly dedicated transit lines there are? Why don't the newspapers investigate? Hmmm? The 401 is often called one of the biggest highways in the world. As has been said before, it's also the biggest oil spill.

Let's try and think like grownups. If we want to repatriate all those transportation dollars that go with moving people around we can't think in terms of cars because, let's all repeat, Canada doesn't own car companies. Canada does own transportation companies. Planes and trains, yes. Cars, no. (if this idea ever comes out on video let's call it "Planes, Trains and no Automobiles"). A combination of air travel and comprehensive rail transit is actually ideal for a place as big as Canada. You basically have islands of population in a sea of deserted territory. Fly in, hop on the train, fly out.

How about building our own transportation system and not giving our money away to Korea, Japan and the U.S.A. and Alberta (no offense, Alberta) Municipalities and provinces do own transportation maintenance companies. The money goes into these organizations, provides good jobs and circulates at home in the communities rather than flying away. We too have to think like long term conspirators. How can we take our transportation back from the car companies and oil?

Ontario's got lots of power. Nuclear, water but any oil we're burning for electricity, for our cars, or for whatever is primarily being imported into the province. Oil in, money out. Why do we maintain an oil-based economy?

 

[quicksilver]

In that case, they might even build just the eastern section of LRT; start it at STC and run to the zoo and Malvern Centre.

What a great idea. If the subway is going to go up to Sheppard, and likely Finch one day, why not build an LRT line from STC that crosses 1- Centennial, 2- UTS 3- Malvern and then 4- Zoo. Those also might be good names for the stations. It's always puzzles me why the TTC thinks about LRT only in terms of roads. "IT MUST GO ON A ROAD" Why? Ever been to San Diego, even on a junket? The "trolley" goes off road people. LRT can go anywhere? Think about the places you want to go rather than the F*CKING road.

Rainforest just solved Scarborough's transit woes. Way to go Rainforest!

 

[GenerationW]

Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good.

Premier Wynne's favourite saying.


Just curious -- now that money (2014 Toronto budget) has been specifically targeted to the B-D extension, does there need to be a 2/3 vote in Council to reopen the Scarborough subway/LRT debate or not?