Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Man listening to Matlow it's not that he's exactly wrong but his attitude answering some of these questions rubs me the wrong way. For example (notwithstanding right or wrong) he attacks the high ridership numbers as hypothetical but his lower projections are factually correct when both numbers come from places like the TTC or Metrolinx.

You get the vibe of "he think's he's the smartest guy in the room."

 

[innsertnamehere]

.. because of differing prices. a 400 square foot condo in Toronto is much more valuable than one in Markham. If you were to compare a $300,000 property in Toronto to a $300,000 property in Brampton, the people in Brampton will pay more. The average speaks volumes as well, the average person in Toronto pays less, its that simple. how hard is it to understand? just because Brampton has differing housing types doesn't devalue the fact that the average person in Toronto pays much less than the average person in Brampton.

 

[SJD_Toronto]

You get the vibe of "he think's he's the smartest guy in the room."

That's the vibe I get.

 

[TOareaFan]

.. because of differing prices. a 400 square foot condo in Toronto is much more valuable than one in Markham. If you were to compare a $300,000 property in Toronto to a $300,000 property in Brampton, the people in Brampton will pay more. The average speaks volumes as well, the average person in Toronto pays less, its that simple. how hard is it to understand? just because Brampton has differing housing types doesn't devalue the fact that the average person in Toronto pays much less than the average person in Brampton.

it matters because you go to the people to pay the increase....and telling them they pay low taxes compared to their 905 neighbours does not resonate with them when they know that people in similar housing to them in those 905 communities actually pay much less (in actual dollars).

It also matters because denser housing should produce lower costs. Density is the holy grail in municipal management/planning that the suburbs are just finding out about. The more dense you are the less fire stations per person you need, the lower your costs of things like garbage pick up should be..etc etc.

Again, though, my initial point was that on a like to like basis, people in Toronto are not paying less tax dollars than people in Brampton/Mississuaga/etc.

EDIT...there comes a point where value of your home does not affect the cost of delivering services. Your 400 s.f. condo example is a good one...is the cost of delivering municipal services to the condo dweller cheaper in Markham just because their condo is not worth as much?

 

[datamouse]

You get the vibe of "he think's he's the smartest guy in the room."

I guess. Of course he is smart and passionate about his work. I can't blame him for being frustrated as hell over this issue as he clearly believes it's not the best option and he's had to face some clear stupidity on the issue (remember that argument months back with Ford over how the RT/LRT didn't in fact run down the centre of roads?).

 

[rbt]

EDIT...there comes a point where value of your home does not affect the cost of delivering services. Your 400 s.f. condo example is a good one...is the cost of delivering municipal services to the condo dweller cheaper in Markham just because their condo is not worth as much?

Property taxes in North America are not tied to the cost of delivering services to your home. It's a progressive scale based on relative house value, under the assumption that the person in the $20M mansion can afford higher taxes than the guy in the $150k shack.

IMO, this works against condos. Yorkville condos average about $400k; houses in the far reaches of Scarborough are in the same price range and pay the same tax level. The condo should be significantly cheaper for the city to service (much less roadway, pipe, fewer trees, less sidewalk, etc.)


It is true that similar households may pay more in Toronto. A large house on a 2 acre lot near Bradford will pay less than a large house on a 2-acre lot near Rosedale; but nobody would move between the two locations as the value of the properties is wildly different.

 

[TFC]

+1. Matlow has approached this issue with facts, and has tried to debate Ford on this issue. I think he deserves a bit of credit for fighting against Ford and Stintz for what he believes is right.

 

[TOareaFan]

Property taxes in North America are not tied to the cost of delivering services to your home. It's a progressive scale based on relative house value, under the assumption that the person in the $20M mansion can afford higher taxes than the guy in the $150k shack.

yep, I get that on an individual property basis....as your mix grows towards higher density, though, the overall cost should decline and the amount you are charging to everyone (whether in the $20MM mansion or the $150k shack) should decline...that is what I meant and sorry if that did not come through.

It is true that similar households may pay more in Toronto. A house on a 2 acre lot near Bradford will pay less than a house on a 2-acre lot near Rosedale; but nobody would move between the two locations as the value of the properties is wildly different.

Not sure I understand your point here. No one was talking about movement between the two. Just that the relative tax bill for the two would have the Toronto tax payer paying significantly higher amounts.....and the perception out there with the "toronto has the lowest tax rates in the GTHA" would have people think the opposite was true.

 

[rbt]

Not sure I understand your point here. No one was talking about movement between the two. Just that the relative tax bill for the two would have the Toronto tax payer paying significantly higher amounts.....and the perception out there with the "toronto has the lowest tax rates in the GTHA" would have people think the opposite was true.

My point was that equal looking properties may have very different property values and property taxes are based in part on property value.

Taxes paid for an average 3-bedroom house will vary across Toronto too just based on location.

Anybody doing a simple comparison to their friends similarly sized house will be flawed, in either direction. I'm sure parts of Scarborough have lower taxes for a 3-bedroom house than that similar house in parts of Woodbridge.

 

[datamouse]

On the other side of the argument DeBearmaker went off the deep end threatening demalgamation and attacking downtown counsellors on their high perches.

 

[Palma]

On the other side of the argument DeBearmaker went off the deep end threatening demalgamation and attacking downtown counsellors on their high perches.

Boy how he has changed. He was an LRT advocate until that election got closer and all the talk abut Scarborough, Scaborough, Scaborough needs subways, subways, subways. Unreal

 

[christiesplits]

‏@GraphicMatt 29m
De Baeremaeker: "No honour are in these motions. These motions are a declaration of war!"

@GraphicMatt 30m
De Baeremeaker: "You think you know better than us! You think that you're smarter than us!" Says other councillors are surrounded by subways

 

[Palma]

Perhaps they should put the subway vs LRT vote to Scarborough residents. Explain to them both options, which services more people, the cost and the time to build and see what they decide. Perhaps in the end people also want above surface service that attracts life to the streets and urbanizes it or maybe not

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Perhaps they should put the subway vs LRT vote to Scarborough residents. Explain to them both options, which services more people, the cost and the time to build and see what they decide. Perhaps in the end people also want above surface service that attracts life to the streets and urbanizes it or maybe not

That's not what the "subway vs. LRT" debate is. It's really a debate over whether or not we want Heavy Rail Rapid Transit or Light Rail Rapid Transit on the SRT corridor. There's no street level transit in the running.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Unfortunately our next mayor will be accused by the right wing of "going back to the old tax and spend days", even though there are no other good options. Ford will be wrongfully vindicated as the saviour of taxpayer dollars.

Judging from the (near) unanimous support of the One City taxation plan, I think it's fair to say that Toronto very much has a desire to "go back to the old tax and spend days" if that means more transit.