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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

Au contraire, investigating what happened is very important.

If we don't know what the cause is, how can we prevent it from happening again on a different part of the network?
 
Not that they shouldn't investigate - we should know exactly what went wrong- but no other part of the system uses the same technology so it seems unlkely there are significant network-wide implications.
 
At the end of the day, they are trains running on rails. Unless the problem was specifically with a part that is exclusive to the ICTS system, it could very easily have broader implications, i.e. if it was deferred maintenance or something like that causing something to break which shouldn't.
 
T3G said:
At the end of the day, they are trains running on rails. Unless the problem was specifically with a part that is exclusive to the ICTS system, it could very easily have broader implications, i.e. if it was deferred maintenance or something like that causing something to break which shouldn't.
Click to expand...

I mean, we've known the system is many years past it's operating lifespan so, yeah, it could be that there is deferred maintenance or someone did something wrong that has broader implications but my guess is that it'll turn out the answer will ultimately be, "This thing is really old and we should have built Transit City and not kept running it this long in the first place because this or something like it was inevitable."

I could be wrong!
 
I would suspect age alone is not going to be the qualifying factor here. Age in tandem with deferred maintenance, sure - a 5 year old train that's not been maintained will find itself in much less trouble than a 38 year old one - but there's been a lot of ideas going around since the accident that the age of the system itself was problematic and it was never meant to last as long as it has.

I disagree. I don't believe it is accurate to say that there is an inherent expiry date on any rail system, provided it is maintained and kept up with the times. Vancouver has the same technology, on lines built around the same time, and they've not experienced anything of the sort. Our own subway lines are almost double the age of the SRT, and that's not saying anything about subway veterans like NYC or London. Provided the aged equipment was replaced, the tracks were maintained/replaced, and other systems maintained and replaced as necessary, there's no reason why it couldn't keep going forward indefinitely.

That being said, you are right it should've been 86'ed a long time ago in favour of Transit City. Alas, we are finding out that populist politicking does not come without consequences.
 
T3G said:
At the end of the day, they are trains running on rails. Unless the problem was specifically with a part that is exclusive to the ICTS system, it could very easily have broader implications, i.e. if it was deferred maintenance or something like that causing something to break which shouldn't.
Click to expand...

I can't expect any findings to be useful for other rail systems, be it TTC subways, streetcars, or GO trains. ICTS implemented in Toronto is one of a kind. Sure, it is trains running on rails, but all implementation details are different from all other rails systems in use here.

Thus, why spend any money on the investigation. Just to prove that poor maintenance leads to a greater risk of failure? That's just common sense, a knowledge we have free of charge.

I'd much prefer them spending the funds to finalize the busway design.
 
Rainforest said:
I can't expect any findings to be useful for other rail systems, be it TTC subways, streetcars, or GO trains. ICTS implemented in Toronto is one of a kind. Sure, it is trains running on rails, but all implementation details are different from all other rails systems in use here.
Click to expand...
Just because ICTS is a unique technology to Toronto doesn't mean that its trains don't also share commonalities with other forms of rail transit. What if the problem was found to be in something which is not exclusive to ICTS, such as the third rail or the trucks?

Rainforest said:
Thus, why spend any money on the investigation. Just to prove that poor maintenance leads to a greater risk of failure? That's just common sense, a knowledge we have free of charge.
Click to expand...
Because a serious accident happened under the TTC's watch. An accident in which people's lives were put in jeopardy. If poor maintenance was the cause of that, then, regardless of whatever future the system has, it would be right to uncover that and discipline those responsible for it accordingly. It could also have disturbing implications for future end-of-life equipment: we already saw with the CLRVs that the TTC was content to scale back maintenance on the equipment prematurely because they incorrectly assumed that Bombardier would deliver the new cars on time. The rolling stock on line 2 is nearing its end of life too - what if someone "assumes" that it's safe to stop maintaining the cars, and a serious derailment happens?

This is all speculation, of course, and it may or may not be what happened. But that's the point of an investigation - to accurately uncover what did actually happen. The thought of choosing between an industrial accident investigation and the implementing of a busway is profoundly alarming to me and has no place in any first world country with any kind of regulations around safety.
 
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See link for Bill Davis' plan for the ICTS at Exhibition Place back in 1972.

davis_015.jpg


Along with plans for Hamilton & Ottawa.
davis_014.jpg


Along with other what if's...
davis_011.jpg

AN URBAN TRANSPORTATION POLICY FOR ONTARIO [PDF]
 
T3G said:
Just because ICTS is a unique technology to Toronto doesn't mean that its trains don't also share commonalities with other forms of rail transit. What if the problem was found to be in something which is not exclusive to ICTS, such as the third rail or the trucks?
Click to expand...

Sounds like looking for generic problems in the train on tracks technology.

If we were in the first 20 years since the trains have been invented, sure. But today - thousands of variations in the rails field, what's the chance we will find any problem applicable to other rails system that isn't known to the engineers yet.

T3G said:
Because a serious accident happened under the TTC's watch. An accident in which people's lives were put in jeopardy. If poor maintenance was the cause of that, then, regardless of whatever future the system has, it would be right to uncover that and discipline those responsible for it accordingly. It could also have disturbing implications for future end-of-life equipment: we already saw with the CLRVs that the TTC was content to scale back maintenance on the equipment prematurely because they incorrectly assumed that Bombardier would deliver the new cars on time. The rolling stock on line 2 is nearing its end of life too - what if someone "assumes" that it's safe to stop maintaining the cars, and a serious derailment happens?

This is all speculation, of course, and it may or may not be what happened. But that's the point of an investigation - to accurately uncover what did actually happen. The thought of choosing between an industrial accident investigation and the implementing of a busway is profoundly alarming to me and has no place in any first world country with any kind of regulations around safety.
Click to expand...

What should be alarming is that we can't fund infrastructure that actually makes people's life easier, while engaging in auxillary tasks of questionable benefit.
 
Rainforest said:
Sounds like looking for generic problems in the train on tracks technology.
Click to expand...
Sure, if you didn't actually read the comment that I made.

It's not looking for problems in train on tracks technology - it's looking for problems in trains on tracks run by the TTC. If, for example, a traction motor came loose and fell off a vehicle during its trip, it wouldn't mean that I would expect this to happen on every train in the whole of creation, but it would mean that I would expect a thorough investigation into the TTC's maintenance practices, because traction motors falling off a vehicle is a non standard occurrence.

Similarly, trains ripping themselves apart and derailing is also a non standard occurrence. So if it does happen, as it has here, I expect to know why this happened.

Rainforest said:
What should be alarming is that we can't fund infrastructure that actually makes people's life easier, while engaging in auxillary tasks of questionable benefit.
Click to expand...
You're right. In fact, why investigate accidents at all? They happened, there's no undoing them, so forget about correcting errors, be they technical or man made, that lead to them so that they can't happen again. We should just cruise through life not knowing when a gigantic hunk of metal is going to come off the rails.
 
T3G said:
Sure, if you didn't actually read the comment that I made.

It's not looking for problems in train on tracks technology - it's looking for problems in trains on tracks run by the TTC. If, for example, a traction motor came loose and fell off a vehicle during its trip, it wouldn't mean that I would expect this to happen on every train in the whole of creation, but it would mean that I would expect a thorough investigation into the TTC's maintenance practices, because traction motors falling off a vehicle is a non standard occurrence.

Similarly, trains ripping themselves apart and derailing is also a non standard occurrence. So if it does happen, as it has here, I expect to know why this happened.
Click to expand...

Of course I couldn't read something you didn't write in your previous comments. However, your present comment is very specific and actually clarifies your point. If you believe there exist some maintenance procedures that are particular to TTC, and relevant for both SRT and the subways or the streetcars - then indeed the issue warrants an investigation.

T3G said:
You're right. In fact, why investigate accidents at all? They happened, there's no undoing them, so forget about correcting errors, be they technical or man made, that lead to them so that they can't happen again. We should just cruise through life not knowing when a gigantic hunk of metal is going to come off the rails.
Click to expand...

And that's an obvious exaggeration. Everyone with common sense will want to investigate any incident that happened on a system in active use; I never wrote anything contrary to that.
 
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