Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[syn]

One poll is consistently? And since then, those same residents have voted for a mayor who promised to build them a subway. Twice. Last I checked we decide what actually gets done at the ballot box.

Of course they did.

Everyone wants subways everywhere, especially after a decade of lies about the alternatives. When the LRT replacement was proposed and paid for, where was the uproar?

Whether or not those particular projects are wise investments is another story entirely.

Any politician could do this anywhere in the city and get votes in those areas.

 

[kEiThZ]

Any politician could do this anywhere in the city and get votes in those areas.

What other part of the city has a double storey transfer in the same direction of travel on a train that breaks down regularly and is so short on capacity, people were waiting 2-3 deep at rush hour, two decades ago?

You're doing a great job demonstrating how out of touch the rest of the city is with the daily reality of those commuters. Keep going.

 

[syn]

Take the RT and do the transfer at Kennedy everyday for a few years and let's see how you feel after that. There's a reason that Rob Ford's rhetoric worked. And if you actually used the RT regularly you'd understand why.

But hey, maybe you understand my family, friends and neighbours better than I do.

I didn't have a problem with daily RT rides, especially compared to streetcar rides of a similar distance that could take 2-3 times as long during the same rush hour period. Outside of rush hour the RT was usually empty. No question the 2 level transfer was a poor implementation from the start.

It's also why it's clear to me this extension and the removal of the RT stops is not going to solve many of Scarborough's transit problems. Reductions in travel times are minimal, and it won't have a great impact on intra-Scarborough travel.

There's an 'elitism' around the SSE in that there's a fixation on trips downtown, when Scarborough's own needs are far greater than that.

You can try and make this about me all you'd like. It's quite clear without the Fords and their 'transit for votes' approach expansion in Scarborough would be far ahead of where it is now with the possibility of a far more sensible subway extension.

 

[syn]

What other part of the city has a double storey transfer in the same direction of travel on a train that breaks down regularly and is so short on capacity, people were waiting 2-3 deep at rush hour, two decades ago?

You're doing a great job demonstrating how out of touch the rest of the city is with the daily reality of those commuters. Keep going.

I take it you've never been to Rexdale, or used a streetcar during rush hour.

Of course no one really cares about Rexdale because politicians can't use it for political gain, and downtown residents have no expectation of local subway expansion.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Anyways, no matter which side you stand on, what's truly sad is if one goes back to the first post of this thread dated 2005 - and 15 years later there is absolutely no movement whatsoever - and improvements won't come for another decade, give or take a few years. The worst case scenario of a system truly, definitively falling apart is looking unavoidable. That's pretty sobering stuff - an entire generation of riders were disenfranchised. Ideological purity and overpoliticization had lead to this - and I think no one came out of this a saint.

AoD

 

[kEiThZ]

when Scarborough's own needs are far greater than that.

And how exactly does deploying light rail on the SRT instead really solve those? Be specific.

The only argument that ever comes up is the number of stops. But the SRT stops that got cut out weren't all that substantial on ridership. And one of those stops is being put back on the Stouffville line (Lawrence-Kennedy). So really the loss comes down to Midland, Ellesmere and McCowan. And all of those are extra 5 mins (max) to STC on the bus, which itself gets offset by the cut of the transfer. And heck, Metrolinx could put on another another stop at Ellesmere if this is still bothering enough people.

Other than this little discussion, building LRT instead of the subway does nothing for intra-Scarborough travel. Now, if you want to argue what could be built for the same amount of funding, then put a fully funded alternative plan that commits to building ALL of the lines and we can have that discussion. Till then, getting the SSE to Sheppard actually does more for most riders in my books than even the SRT does today.

 

[kEiThZ]

I take it you've never been to Rexdale, or used a streetcar during rush hour.

Of course no one really cares about Rexdale because politicians can't use it for political gain, and downtown residents have no expectation of local subway expansion.

Were the streetcars in Rexdale due to be replaced? And what subway extension would remove a linear transfer for them?

And heck, if the people of Rexdale voted for something, I would wholeheartedly support them. Even if it cost me more in taxes.

 

[Rainforest]

Were the streetcars in Rexdale due to be replaced? And what subway extension would remove a linear transfer for them?

And heck, if the people of Rexdale voted for something, I would wholeheartedly support them. Even if it cost me more in taxes.

Actually, Rexdale has got / is getting a lot of transit improvements. The TYSSE stations at Finch W and Steeles W cut their trip times if they are heading downtown, as they can transfer to the subway faster. Finch LRT will open in a few years, and will further reduce the travel time along Finch.

 

[kEiThZ]

Actually, Rexdale has got / is getting a lot of transit improvements. The TYSSE stations at Finch W and Steeles W cut their trip times if they are heading downtown, as they can transfer to the subway faster. Finch LRT will open in a few years, and will further reduce the travel time along Finch.

I know all this. Just saying. I wouldn't have any issues if Rexdale residents said they want to upgrade a proposed plan and it were to cost me a bit more.

Personally, I would have been okay with an Eglinton Crosstown interlined with the SRT. However, when they decided to separate the lines and then started cutting back on the SRT extension and took the stop out of Malvern (terminating at Sheppard/Progress), that made it less appealing. That when I saw people in Malvern, at least, say, "If I gotta get on a long bus ride anyway, I might as well stay on till STC and get a subway there". Having the subway end at Sheppard/McCowan now is looking even better. 10 min bus ride to a subway that goes right downtown.

I have said before that a big part of the problem in Scarborough was specifically how bad GO was all these years and how little integration there was. There would be far less demand for a subway extension if the TTC and GO were better integrated and people were doing more of their commute on GO from Scarborough. Instead of blaming Rob Ford, people should be blaming the lack of system-wide integration.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I have said before that a big part of the problem in Scarborough was specifically how bad GO was all these years and how little integration there was. There would be far less demand for a subway extension if the TTC and GO were better integrated and people were doing more of their commute on GO from Scarborough. Instead of blaming Rob Ford, people should be blaming the lack of system-wide integration.

Yep - the bus-subway-subway is still going to be slow relative to bus-GO to Union.

AoD

 

[Rainforest]

It was designed for CLRVs. I've heard nothing that it couldn't handle a Flexity Freedom. Worst case scenario is that they could run Flexity Outlooks which can run anywhere a CLRV could run.

I remembered it isn't that simple; took me a while to find the source, and here it is:

SRT Final Report — RT Or LRT?

The SRT study is to be considered at the TTC meeting on August 30. There are three documents in all: The Final Report Summary Background & Current Operations Alternatives & Future Needs Pr…

stevemunro.ca

Comments section:

" Steve: The tunnel at Ellesmere was intentionally downsized to prevent the TTC from backing out of the change from LRT to RT technology during the initial construction. The tunnel needs to be replaced by something big enough to accommodate larger cars. At first it was thought that even Mark II’s would not fit, but they seem to think now that this is not the case. If that turns out to be wrong, it adds considerably to the RT option’s cost. "

 

[JSF-1]

I have said before that a big part of the problem in Scarborough was specifically how bad GO was all these years and how little integration there was. There would be far less demand for a subway extension if the TTC and GO were better integrated and people were doing more of their commute on GO from Scarborough. Instead of blaming Rob Ford, people should be blaming the lack of system-wide integration.

Unfortunately no amount of integration will convince people to use GO so long as it has its abysmal 15-30 minute services. If they can electrify the system and get it down to 5-10 minute service intervals than you will see people shift over to the GO network if fare integration is available. Even then though catchment may be limited unless Metrolinx also builds more stations and fully transitions the network away from being a suburban system to an urban rail system like many other cities in the world. GO only becomes a viable alternative to the subway when it can compete with the subway. I do have a great fear though that when it finally comes time the Conservatives (if they are still in power) will balk at the price and set GO back another decade because that seems to be the thing they like to do. They already screwed Kitchener out of RER level service when they cancelled the "Missing Link" project so I wouldn't be surprised if the shaft the rest of Ontario by killing RER as a means to save money.

 

[syn]

And how exactly does deploying light rail on the SRT instead really solve those? Be specific.

The only argument that ever comes up is the number of stops. But the SRT stops that got cut out weren't all that substantial on ridership. And one of those stops is being put back on the Stouffville line (Lawrence-Kennedy). So really the loss comes down to Midland, Ellesmere and McCowan. And all of those are extra 5 mins (max) to STC on the bus, which itself gets offset by the cut of the transfer. And heck, Metrolinx could put on another another stop at Ellesmere if this is still bothering enough people.

Other than this little discussion, building LRT instead of the subway does nothing for intra-Scarborough travel. Now, if you want to argue what could be built for the same amount of funding, then put a fully funded alternative plan that commits to building ALL of the lines and we can have that discussion. Till then, getting the SSE to Sheppard actually does more for most riders in my books than even the SRT does today.

Were the streetcars in Rexdale due to be replaced? And what subway extension would remove a linear transfer for them?

And heck, if the people of Rexdale voted for something, I would wholeheartedly support them. Even if it cost me more in taxes.

I wholeheartedly support transit expansion in Scarborough, even if it means me paying more in taxes. I just don't like seeing my tax dollars wasted, especially when it's so difficult to get transit funding.

For some reason you're trying to frame me as someone who doesn't see Scarborough as part of the city, when the reality is I've spent plenty of time there. I use transit to get around everywhere, so I'm quite aware of the transit struggles faced by people all over the city.

Were streetcars in Rexdale due to be replace? No. That's because they don't have streetcars. There's a reason locals were livid when there was talk of canceling the Finch West LRT. What the Fords framed as 'disrespect' in Scarborough would be wholeheartedly welcomed in other areas of the city.

What I would ask is what problem the SSE really solves.

I've posted what I think would've been a better plan more than a few times. The LRT would've not only provided far greater access (along with being operational already), there would've been plenty of budget leftover for an Eglinton East extension, along with a Sheppard East subway extension with a stop at STC. Not is it only a better use of available funds, you have two LRT lines that can be extended north far more easily than a subway. There's subway access and the beginnings of a real Rapid Transit Network in Scarborough. A DRL/OL to Don Mills would provide Scarborough riders with a direct connection downtown. More access, more connections downtown...it seems like a no-brainer.

That's what disappoints me about the Fords and their rhetoric. They didn't do what's best for Scarborough or anyone else - they're did what's best for them. Whatever has been said, I'd have no problem supporting their plans if they made sense, or if there was at least consistency to their spending that wasn't so transparently political (maximizing the cost of the EWLRT & SSE while cheaping out on a project we can't afford to cut corners on).

Unfortunately I can't see any major transit projects happening in Scarborough anytime soon with what the SSE will cost - I hope it's worth that cost.

 

[ARG1]

I've posted what I think would've been a better plan more than a few times. The LRT would've not only provided far greater access (along with being operational already), there would've been plenty of budget leftover for an Eglinton East extension, along with a Sheppard East subway extension with a stop at STC. Not is it only a better use of available funds, you have two LRT lines that can be extended north far more easily than a subway. There's subway access and the beginnings of a real Rapid Transit Network in Scarborough. A DRL/OL to Don Mills would provide Scarborough riders with a direct connection downtown. More access, more connections downtown...it seems like a no-brainer.

Unfortunately I can't see any major transit projects happening in Scarborough anytime soon with what the SSE will cost - I hope it's worth that cost.

You say this immediately after John Tory announced that he's doubling down work on the Eglinton East extension to Malvern, not to mention that its highly likely that Doug Ford is going to extend Sheppard East to Sheppard-McCowan if re-elected, so as it turns out, SSE isn't coming at the cost of anything else.

That's what disappoints me about the Fords and their rhetoric. They didn't do what's best for Scarborough or anyone else - they're did what's best for them. Whatever has been said, I'd have no problem supporting their plans if they made sense, or if there was at least consistency to their spending that wasn't so transparently political (maximizing the cost of the EWLRT & SSE while cheaping out on a project we can't afford to cut corners on).

You say this as if the Fords have some ulterior motive to build the SSE. Eglinton West I can at the very least understand the logic behind him not wanting loud trains in his backyard which even though that rhetoric makes 0 sense, at least I can understand how someone can have that impression. What does Ford have to gain from burying SSE? He's a conservative so you'd expect him to be more money pinching than most other politicians, he doesn't live there so he's not impacted by its existence, and if he's doing it for the votes, then isn't that a good thing? If the people of Scarborough really want a subway, then its Doug Ford's duty to give them a subway since they voted for him (or more specifically his party).

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

You say this as if the Fords have some ulterior motive to build the SSE. Eglinton West I can at the very least understand the logic behind him not wanting loud trains in his backyard which even though that rhetoric makes 0 sense, at least I can understand how someone can have that impression. What does Ford have to gain from burying SSE? He's a conservative so you'd expect him to be more money pinching than most other politicians, he doesn't live there so he's not impacted by its existence, and if he's doing it for the votes, then isn't that a good thing? If the people of Scarborough really want a subway, then its Doug Ford's duty to give them a subway since they voted for him (or more specifically his party).

He and his brother also pushed the whole argument of subway = underground - that's what his folks expect at this juncture. He is a populist, not a "conservative" in the strictest sense of the word (certainly not a principled one - when expediency is at stake). Come now, don't you think someone who believe in value for money wouldn't try a little harder to find cost savings when the numbers run into the billions (and when the two lines you have mentioned are combined, 10B), if they really believed in it?

AoD