Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[JSF-1]

In Toronto, yes. But Chicago and New York saw entire lines removed from their rapid transit systems between the 1950s and 1970s.

Goes back further then that *cough* 2nd Avenue El *cough*

 

[Rainforest]

Rebuilding the curve (though just tweaking the approaches to the tunnel a bit) was part of the plan to use the longer Skytrain cars. It's not necessary for LRT.

My understanding is that Mk-I (current SRT) is the only kind of vehicle that can negotiate that curve. Replacing with Mk-II, Mk-III, or the modern LRT vehicles all require rebuilding the curve. Unless it is a very custom-made LRT.

And there's no need for any extension east of McCowan to delay opening - that's already 30 years late.

That depends on the fleet plan. If the SLRT operated off the Conlins yard, then obviously it would need a connection to Sheppard.

Maybe it could operate off the Mt Dennis yard for the first few years, given that the Eglinton line got truncated and needs fewer vehicles in Phase 1. If so, then indeed the extension east of McCowan could be delayed a bit.

I don't recall any previous commitment past 2023 - just some vague wishes that were horses.

The recent reporting suggests it might not even last until 2023.

Also, my understanding is it isn't the line itself that's the issue. It's the rolling stock. The only possible option there is buying old rolling stock from Vancouver - and they've wanted full price for their 35-year old vehicles.

No commitments have been made, but I believe this will be a technical matter. If the rolling stock can be refurbed again, then it might remain in operation for a few more years.

Scarborough would have far better connectivity (or at least higher ridership) if they converted the current line to LRT, and used the money to instead build an LRT network in Scarborough. The study was pretty clear about that.

That's a questionable conclusion, given the recent updated cost of EE LRT (> $4B). It looks like SLRT + EE LRT combined will cost more than the subway extension.

 

[asher__jo]

What's ridiculous is that the lack of a subway in Scarborough is perpetuated as a "Toronto Elites vs Scarborough" conspiracy, when Scarborough's current state of transit is directly tied to choices they made and supported for decades - whether you're looking at urban or transit planning.

That's the heart of the issue.

 

[nfitz]

My understanding is that Mk-I (current SRT) is the only kind of vehicle that can negotiate that curve. Replacing with Mk-II, Mk-III, or the modern LRT vehicles all require rebuilding the curve. Unless it is a very custom-made LRT.

It was designed for CLRVs. I've heard nothing that it couldn't handle a Flexity Freedom. Worst case scenario is that they could run Flexity Outlooks which can run anywhere a CLRV could run.

 

[kEiThZ]

when Scarborough's current state of transit is directly tied to choices they made and supported for decades

Remind us who in Scarborough agreed to deploying a unique technology for the SRT?

Even back then, a subway extension was asked for. The argument at the time was for a streetcar network in Scarborough. Instead of building that network, all that was built was a short SRT line. And even that's been allowed to have its reliability decline for years, before the current debates. So nobody should be surprised that most residents now don't want any transit tech that is unique or that subways have become symbolic.

 

[Streety McCarface]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1337423287530500097

*The Confederation Line Has Entered The Chat
*The Metro Line Has Entered The Chat
*Hurontario LRT Has Entered The Chat
*The Toronto Streetcar System Has Entered The Chat

LRT is too blanket of a term to actually mean anything, and because it's associated with so many different technologies, everything negative associated with any of of said technologies gets mixed in with the term.

 

[JSF-1]

Even back then, a subway extension was asked for. The argument at the time was for a streetcar network in Scarborough.

Back when the idea for a line to the Town Centre was proposed in 1973 (or around then) Scarborough politicians would have liked the subway but they decided not to pursue the idea when they saw the cost. Instead they opted for the High-Speed streetcar link that was proposed by the TTC and supported by Metro. Planners at Metro saw the need to bring rapid transit to STC but saw that a subway would have been to much for the area and Scarborough politicans and planners agreed. In fact the idea of a subway to STC wasn't seriously discussed until Rob Ford came a long and politicized the issue in 2010. Even back in 2006 Scarborough politicians were completely on-board with upgrading the SRT to the newer Mk.II trains. So I wouldn't say it was asked for back in the 80's and was more of a "would like to have" but never went anywhere because Scarborough didn't want to bare the cost of the subway expansion. Now of course when the Province came along and black mailed Metro into using there trains everything came off the rails. Now had that not happened, we wouldn't be having this discussion; had the City also upgraded the SRT to the newer trains back in 2006 we wouldn't be having this discussion either. To think it would have only taken 8 months to upgrade the SRT but now it seems will be looking at a multi-year shut down of the line.

 

[kEiThZ]

....but I don’t see them going back to that if they get elected. I honestly think every party would continue to build the multi-stop line. It’s already too big of an issue to go back after over a decade. There is nothing for any of them to gain by going back to the one stop plan or LRT conversion.

Quite frankly given how much left-leaning politicians have made LRT symbolic, I don't trust them at this point not to flip flop or simply downgrade the plan purposely to make it unpalatable (as the Liberals attempted to do). I wish they'd move on and simply try and work to convert Sheppard to LRT (making it like Eglinton).

Despite being as frustrated as you with this process, I have to disagree and would still never vote for the PCPO in the next election. I don’t think getting the subway extension makes up for their more damaging policies.

That's what is great about democracy. We can disagree and express our preference at the ballot box. At this point, I am starting to think voting for Ford is preferable if only because continuity ensures that shovels get in the ground and we get past the point of no return. The same reason I'll keep voting for Trudeau till they have shovels in the ground for VIA's HFR, regardless of how many scandals he has.

And let's be clear, if somebody like me is getting frustrated, you should be far, far more worried about how the average voter feels about all this.

 

[syn]

Remind us who in Scarborough agreed to deploying a unique technology for the SRT?

Even back then, a subway extension was asked for. The argument at the time was for a streetcar network in Scarborough. Instead of building that network, all that was built was a short SRT line. And even that's been allowed to have its reliability decline for years, before the current debates. So nobody should be surprised that most residents now don't want any transit tech that is unique or that subways have become symbolic.

Among others, Scarborough's City Council.

A vote was held to determine whether or not to move forward with ICTS techology. The vote was in favour of the project, 11-5. Scarborough politicians quite convincingly supported building the RT.

LRTs are not unique, and most polls on whether or not Scarborough residents are in favour of LRTs or Subways usually come out around 50-50, with some more in favour of LRTs, and some clearly in the subway camp. This is in a political climate that has vilified the former with outright lies.

The sad part of it all is that this project won't come close to solving the issues it's supposed to for Scarborough residents - especially for the large percentage that need improved inter-Scarborough transit.

 

[kEiThZ]

A vote was held to determine whether or not to move forward with ICTS techology. The vote was in favour of the project, 11-5. Scarborough politicians quite convincingly supported building the RT.

I'm sure they were really given a choice......

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I'm sure they were really given a choice......

Even if they weren't, there is no reason to believe that something new and shiny didn't get support from the politicians and the general public at the time - I highly doubt anyone but administrators would care about orphan technology, etc.

AoD

 

[APTA-2048]

Quite frankly given how much left-leaning politicians have made LRT symbolic, I don't trust them at this point not to flip flop or simply downgrade the plan purposely to make it unpalatable (as the Liberals attempted to do). I wish they'd move on and simply try and work to convert Sheppard to LRT (making it like Eglinton).

Is it really happening at the Provincial level anymore? It seems to me the loudest opposition is just on City Council, and everyone else has moved on.

And no one is suggesting converting Sheppard to a more suitable technology. Which I agree is super annoying.

That's what is great about democracy. We can disagree and express our preference at the ballot box. At this point, I am starting to think voting for Ford is preferable if only because continuity ensures that shovels get in the ground and we get past the point of no return. The same reason I'll keep voting for Trudeau till they have shovels in the ground for VIA's HFR, regardless of how many scandals he has.

And let's be clear, if somebody like me is getting frustrated, you should be far, far more worried about how the average voter feels about all this.

I really do get the frustration, but at what point do you say enough is enough? It’s nice to get one thing, but is it worth it if you lose a bunch of other things?

 

[JSF-1]

And no one is suggesting converting Sheppard to a more suitable technology. Which I agree is super annoying.

You know full well Doug will never in a million years consider such an idea. First of all it is an LRT which he and his brother have now thoroughly destroyed the reputation of among suburban residence. Second its an LRT which regardless of facts, Ford and his troglodyte supporters will besmirch as a mere streetcar built only for "second class citizens". Third his brother tried and failed to get the subway extended, and Doug himself is a supporter of the Subway and anything else won't be tolerated. If you want the Sheppard Line converted into an LRT then Doug Ford and the Conservatives have to go.

 

[kEiThZ]

You know full well Doug will never in a million years consider such an idea. First of all it is an LRT which he and his brother have now thoroughly destroyed the reputation of among suburban residence. Second its an LRT which regardless of facts, Ford and his troglodyte supporters will besmirch as a mere streetcar built only for "second class citizens". Third his brother tried and failed to get the subway extended, and Doug himself is a supporter of the Subway and anything else won't be tolerated. If you want the Sheppard Line converted into an LRT then Doug Ford and the Conservatives have to go.

Eglinton is going to change a lot of opinions. It won't change the debate on the SRT because of the transfer. But it absolutely can change the debate on Sheppard.

 

[JSF-1]

Eglinton is going to change a lot of opinions. It won't change the debate on the SRT because of the transfer. But it absolutely can change the debate on Sheppard.

It may change opinions among some, but all that doesn't matter when the man in charge is anti-LRT full stop.