Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Deadpool X]

Distance from Union to MCC - 21 km. Distance from Union to SCC - 18 km

You want to argue on that basis? And you want to argue MCC is less developed than SCC right now (and in the absence of serious form of rapid transit)? Don't forget your initial point was about using the simplistic measure of subway miles/capita - and not any other intervening factors.

AoD

You conveniently missed quite a few other points in my post about potential ridership from Peel region vs Scarborough. And also that extension to MCC will be twice as long.

 

[Deadpool X]

From what I recall - please correct me if I am wrong - what was being proposed for the Scarborough LRT was a same level, cross platform transfer between the subway and the LRT. Same level - no need to go up / down escalators or stairs. Our own personal experience with a same level cross-platform transfer is at the Longyang Road station on Subway Line 2 between downtown Shanghai and Pudong Airport. Not a problem at all. The repeated hype about how bad such a transfer between the subway and the LRT, based on our actual experience with such - is nonsense, and speaks to both a struggling attempt to justify the otherwise unwarranted enormous expense of an underground heavy rail subway extention, combined with an overwhelming sense of self-entitlement by the Scarborough residents to which the politician class are pandering. Agreed that Scarborough is currently under served by effective transit options - but was the current subway extension plan the most appropriate solution?

If in fact the transfer at Kennedy station would have been over two levels - agreed that would not be the most desirable solution, but as indicated, that is not my recollection of the original plans. If that was indeed the case, my apologies.

I don't think something like that was proposed. But once again, nowhere else in the city we use a cross platform transfer to continue a linear journey. Keeping extra walking aside, frequency could be 10 min in off peak hours which means waiting an extra 10 minutes to continue your journey.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I don't think something like that was proposed. But once again, nowhere else in the city we use a cross platform transfer to continue a linear journey. Keeping extra walking aside, frequency could be 10 min in off peak hours which means waiting an extra 10 minutes to continue your journey.

That's literally what's been proposed for the OL and GO East Harbour interchange.

AoD

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

You conveniently missed quite a few other points in my post about potential ridership from Peel region vs Scarborough. And also that extension to MCC will be twice as long.

Don't forget your initial post was about using the simplistic measure of subway miles/capita - and not any other intervening factors. My point is that you cannot use a measure like this precisely because the other details you yourself just brought into the discussion. You cannot use one flawed criteria, and when shown it is flawed, show me a whole other bunch of criteria to delineate why it should be used. My point wasn't to argue a subway should go into Peel - my point is to argue amount of subway per population isn't a good measure.

Your initial post below:

North York has 20 km of subway lines while Scarborough has only 5 km of subway. Scarborough is only slightly lesser in population (630,000) compared to North York (870,000). Even with SSE, Scarborough will have less subway per capita.

Not only that, Scarborough has only 1 highway passing through it while North York has 4. Even Etobicoke with half as much population has 4 freeways.

But somehow a few people in this forum look down upon Scarborough sitting on their thrones as if Scarborough doesn't matter at all in the grand scheme of things.

PS - I don't live in Scarborough but I can certainly sense some people's hate for Scarborough.

AoD

 

[Deadpool X]

Don't forget your initial post was about using the simplistic measure of subway miles/capita - and not any other intervening factors - and my point is that you cannot use a measure like this precisely because the what-ifs you yourself just brought into the discussion. You cannot use one flawed criteria, and when shown it is flawed, show me a whole other bunch of criteria to delineate why it should be used.

AoD

Yes, I stand by my criteria for comparing similar places. North York and Scarborough are comparable and that's why I compared them. Peel can't be compared to Scarborough and I did mention why. Anyways, I don't see a point in continuing this discussion if you are going to pick only selective portions of my post without taking them in overall context.

PS - I am not even talking about having an underground extension. An elevated extension would work as good and I am in favour of savings costs where needed. Neither I am in favour of having Sheppard station. We can save that cost by ending the line at STC.

That's literally what's been proposed for the OL and GO East Harbour interchange.

AoD

I am not sure you are understanding the meaning of a forced linear transfer. If people are travelling on Ontario line, they DON'T have to change trains at East Harbour to continue their journey on the same line. Same for GO passengers. They need to change trains only if they want to take a different route. But at Kennedy people need to change trains to continue the same journey. I don't think I can explain it any more plainly than this. Maybe someone else can give it a try.

I asked if there is any forced linear transfer elsewhere in the city to continue journey in the same direction. East Harbour is not.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

PS - I am not even talking about having an underground extension. An elevated extension would work as good and I am in favour of savings costs where needed. Neither I am in favour of having Sheppard station. We can save that cost by ending the line at STC.

And I wasn't here to argue that there shouldn't be a subway extension to SCC (I think it is justifiable). I am just pointing out the folly of using a flawed measure - and how using it as a proxy for fairness becomes dangerous.

AoD

 

[syn]

Which is actually a truncated version of phase one of a ten stations line. This is getting old.

Transit experts at the time pointed out the corridor didn't have the density (residential & commercial) to justify a line there.

It's a cautionary tale that we're yet again ignoring.We've spend nearly half a century building expensive suburban infrastructure that hasn't dealt with the core issues the system is facing. It doesn't seem that we've learned a thing.

Now that we're finally building critical infrastucture (the OL/DRL) we're value engineering the project and almost guaranteeing the capacity is limited vs what was originally planned and absolutely necessary.

I disagree with you - it's not getting old, it's well past the point of being old.

 

[syn]

From what I recall - please correct me if I am wrong - what was being proposed for the Scarborough LRT was a same level, cross platform transfer between the subway and the LRT. Same level - no need to go up / down escalators or stairs. Our own personal experience with a same level cross-platform transfer is at the Longyang Road station on Subway Line 2 between downtown Shanghai and Pudong Airport. Not a problem at all. The repeated hype about how bad such a transfer between the subway and the LRT, based on our actual experience with such - is nonsense, and speaks to both a struggling attempt to justify the otherwise unwarranted enormous expense of an underground heavy rail subway extention, combined with an overwhelming sense of self-entitlement by the Scarborough residents to which the politician class are pandering. Agreed that Scarborough is currently under served by effective transit options - but was the current subway extension plan the most appropriate solution?

If in fact the transfer at Kennedy station would have been over two levels - agreed that would not be the most desirable solution, but as indicated, that is not my recollection of the original plans. If that was indeed the case, my apologies.

I believe that's correct.

If the transfer is the issue, there are plenty of ways to address it for a lot less than $6 billion.

With the plan you proposed the transfer would be far more convenient than it is at, say, Yonge & Bloor.

 

[Deadpool X]

And I wasn't here to argue that there shouldn't be a subway extension to SCC (I think it is justifiable). I am just pointing out the folly of using a flawed measure - and how using it as a proxy for fairness becomes dangerous.

AoD

As long as you are convinced that a subway extension is needed, I am fine

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

The transfer at Kennedy probably wouldn't have been as bad as the bus terminal to subway transfer that is being proposed at STC with the subway extension.

 

[Rainforest]

I thought they'd got that down to closer to a year as they were working on the design and staging.

Still, beats ... gosh, if they can keep it going until 2023 ... and 2030s means 2030 (which seems optimistic) ... 7 years on buses.

If they did the conversion in a year .. that would be quite a fit, and in a sharp contrast with other recent transit undertakings that are consistently getting completed late.

The conversion isn't that trivial; it would involve the rebuild of the curve between the Uxbridge sub and the guideway, the extension east of McCowan, and tunneling under the 401. Enough elements for something to go wrong and delay the opening.

On the other hand, extending the life of the existing line is usually easier than building a new one. If they found a way to keep it running from 2015 (the old EOL) till 2023-2025, then maybe they can do another rehab and make it to ~ 2028.

Even in the worst case scenario for SSE, if the riders have to spend 7 years on buses .. who will remember that 10 years after SSE opens? Only some transit historians. While Scarborough will have a better connectivity for many decades to come.

 

[nfitz]

If they did the conversion in a year .. that would be quite a fit, and in a sharp contrast with other recent transit undertakings that are consistently getting completed late.

The conversion isn't that trivial; it would involve the rebuild of the curve between the Uxbridge sub and the guideway, the extension east of McCowan, and tunneling under the 401. Enough elements for something to go wrong and delay the opening.

Rebuilding the curve (though just tweaking the approaches to the tunnel a bit) was part of the plan to use the longer Skytrain cars. It's not necessary for LRT. And there's no need for any extension east of McCowan to delay opening - that's already 30 years late.

On the other hand, extending the life of the existing line is usually easier than building a new one. If they found a way to keep it running from 2015 (the old EOL) till 2023-2025, then maybe they can do another rehab and make it to ~ 2028.

I don't recall any previous commitment past 2023 - just some vague wishes that were horses.

The recent reporting suggests it might not even last until 2023.

Also, my understanding is it isn't the line itself that's the issue. It's the rolling stock. The only possible option there is buying old rolling stock from Vancouver - and they've wanted full price for their 35-year old vehicles.

Even in the worst case scenario for SSE, if the riders have to spend 7 years on buses .. who will remember that 10 years after SSE opens? Only some transit historians. While Scarborough will have a better connectivity for many decades to come.

Scarborough would have far better connectivity (or at least higher ridership) if they converted the current line to LRT, and used the money to instead build an LRT network in Scarborough. The study was pretty clear about that.

 

[kEiThZ]

No, Line 5 will end at Kennedy, at least for now. But the current proposed transfer between Line 5 and (the likely) Like 3 will be Kennedy-esque at "Science Centre."

Not the same thing because it's not a linear transfer. Not everyone is getting off at Science Centre to take the Ontario Line.

Scarborough was it's own city up until 1998. They build their City Centre where they felt it was in their best interests.

And it isn't now. It's ridiculous that people want to cite the pre-amalgamation era over two fucking decades ago to justify treating Scarborough like Pickering.

I didn't like Rob Ford. Or Doug Ford. But I'm increasingly understanding why people voted for them. And I might actually consider voting PC provincially myself next election. It's getting clear that the rest of Toronto won't actually think Scarborough is actually part of Toronto until the subway is built. And that won't happen without 4 more years of Ford.

 

[kEiThZ]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1337423287530500097

The SRT is the source of all these problems. If the original streetcar network was built in Scarborough, we wouldn't have had any of the discussions we're having now. Floating a unique technology on Scarborough, building in a shitty linear transfer and then maintaining it such that it has become less reliable than the rest of the network is why Scarborough residents have come to believe that anything less than a BD extension is second class.

Personally, I think the BD extension should be built. Finish the endless bickering. But use the cost of the BD extension and the example of Eglinton to push for a conversion of Sheppard to LRT and extension in both directions.

 

[ShonTron]

And it’ll be the first time that a rapid transit map is subtracted to as opposed to the usual incremental additions.

In Toronto, yes. But Chicago and New York saw entire lines removed from their rapid transit systems between the 1950s and 1970s.