Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[snowystar]

This was posted by a transit expert in the US on another board.

$40 million per mile for LRT!? Does anyone build anywhere close to that cheap lately? Most new LRT construction fall within $75-$100 million per km ($120-160 millions per mile).

EDIT: I missed the LRV cost calculation. But still, his calculation seems to be on the cheap side for the LRT - I don't think you can even buy LRV at 3.2 millions a piece.

And also, according to his calculation, 31 million riders for LRT but only 18 millions for subway?

 

[scar_resident]

No but you are suggesting that transit was going to shape the pattern of job growth, which in hindsight proves inaccurate. The centrifugal (and centripetal) forces are not something transit lines can overcome. The jobs that had been recovered, I would hazard to think, are fundamentally different in nature from the jobs that were lost.

AoD

No suggestion intended, don't know how you interpreted that from what I posted. Planning for the subways was the transportation infrastructure for jobs in those employment districts. Lower capacity infrastructure planning (sheppard & SRT) for the next 3 decades shows that they are no longer planning to realize those job gains in those areas. Adding higher capacity infrastrucutre for DRL, shows that they expect and are targeting job growth in core only and they expect more people from the east end to obtain those jobs and take transit to get there.

The jobs that have been recovered are office jobs, the scarborough and north york centre areas are zoned for office jobs.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

scar_resident:

Planning for the subways was the transportation infrastructure for jobs in those employment districts. Lower capacity infrastructure planning (sheppard & SRT) for the next 3 decades shows that they are no longer planning to realize those job gains in those areas. Adding higher capacity infrastrucutre for DRL, shows that they expect and are targeting job growth in core only and they expect more people from the east end to obtain those jobs and take transit to get there.

I think you should rephrase it - planning to realize job gains implies they are somehow in a position to shape it - whereas lower capacity infrastructure planning implies that they are no longer expecting that the previously projected job gains will be met. Huge difference in the role of infrastructure is expected to play (expedite development vs. responding to development)

The jobs that have been recovered are office jobs, the scarborough and north york centre areas are zoned for office jobs.

The question is what type of office jobs - you choose to locate in downtown knowing the cost is higher but offset it with other benefits (prestige, proximity to related firms, availability of talent) - just because a location is zoned for a certain use doesn't meant that businesses will chose to locate there. In fact, most of these so called suburban centres in the GTA were disappointment - e.g MCC no new office development since the early 90s in spite of it being at the central of the local transit network.

AoD

 

[Forgotten]

Wow...

The ridership is there (14000 pph)
The density is there
The extra 5 Millions trips a year is projected with subway over LRT even if you have less people in walking distance, you get more users

TTC Andy Byford said, it's viable, justified and won't lose money with the potential to avoid an SRT shutdown forcing 40 TTC bus acting as a replacement per hour per directions in the streets of Scarborough

It's the right subway and even pro LRT councillor Mihevc said so as well. He was even way more convincing than Glenn de Baeremaeker

This is not a luxury or Scarborough throwing a tantrum...The SRT has to be replaced NOW. 563M$ for subways is a reasonable expense and this time at least, they are making sure they have a plan to pay for it upfront.

The only problem here is the fiscal side of it at this point, more specifically...What will the Federal government do now.

Comparing building a subway in Scarborough to buying a pony? You're entitled to your opinions but I'll listen to the TTC numbers to make up my mind and say what I want to say over your condescending and arrogant comments.

You posted the same thing on the NP article:

I'll lose my faith in humanity if city council numbskulls this decision and votes against a Bloor-Danforth subway extension.

The ridership is there (14000 pph)
The density is there
The extra 5 Millions trips a year is projected with subway over LRT even if you have less people in walking distance, you get more users (bus transfers)

TTC's Andy Byford said, it's viable, justified and won't lose money with the potential to avoid an SRT shutdown forcing 40 TTC buses per hour per directions acting as a replacement in the streets of Scarborough

It's the right subway and even pro LRT councillor Mihevc said so as well. He was even way more convincing than Glenn de Baeremaeker.

This is not a luxury or Scarborough throwing a tantrum...The SRT has to be replaced NOW. $563 Million for subways is a reasonable expense and this time at least, they are making sure they have a plan to pay for it upfront.

So it's down to ONLY $563 million now? If only. Didn't I hear 1,500 million being thrown around? A potential doubling of the price tag? It is paying for luxury. The streetcars are almost 35 years old and are being replaced by new ones. The SRT is almost 30 years old so it's being replaced by new trains and it is being extended and it's getting a 3.5 times increase in capacity. Some are saying that's not good enough. I don't want a stupid extension! Give me a 7 times increase in capacity instead because my brother has it. I don't care how much it costs! I deserve it!

 

[Forgotten]

BurlOak:



But just what is so big deal about a transfer per se, especially during a time when there are frequent service? Nobody stay away from using YUS or BD because they have to transfer at St. George or Y+B. It might be suboptimal, but a sheltered transfers on routes with high frequency definitely isn't a killer that some make it out to be. Arguing for a subway strictly on that basis is pretty weak.

AoD

Those downtowners giving Scarborough the short end of the stick.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Forgotten:

Perceived slights are even less of an argument than transfers.

AoD

 

[W. K. Lis]

Those downtowners giving Scarborough the short end of the stick.

But if the stick is a pen,...

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Subway it is - 28 to 16 (provided the Fed Prov commitment holds)

AoD

 

[Tulse]

Subway it is - 28 to 16 (provided the Fed Prov commitment holds)

That last is not correct, is it? I thought that because Mihevec's amendment prohibited using the SLRT funds, the Feds will have to cough up new money, and they haven't made any commitment to that that I know of.

 

[Lansdude]

To expect to travel on a subway for 20km into the heart of downtown for three bucks with a single transfer seems a little ridiculous.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Tulse:

Yes, should have been a bit more clear about that. Still some question about the Sept 30 deadline that got passed as well.

AoD

 

[SJD_Toronto]

28 - 16.... Now it's up to the Feds to truly make this subway extension a reality.

 

[Forgotten]

28 - 16.... Now it's up to the Feds to truly make this subway extension a reality.

So what you're saying is we're not getting a subway?

 

[Tulse]

And I believe that, by Mihevic's amendment, the province also has to pony up the full $1.8 billion, which I believe they have threatened not to do.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

StevieD:

Well, I am not sure how the Feds will handle this one - don't hold your hopes up (Flaherty announced that the committed funds can be transferred and Ford backtracking on the said topic might be difficult for the Feds to deal with)

AoD