News   Jun 28, 2024
 4.2K     5 
News   Jun 28, 2024
 1.9K     2 
News   Jun 28, 2024
 667     1 

Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

So you want Ford to change the plan on Eglinton to grade-separated. Because that is requried to get this Schabas plan to work. (P.S. I agree with you that running along the 401 instead of elevated along Sheppard was a part of the plan that needed to change. Your Agincourt is a good suggestion).

Remember the Liberals and Metrolinx hid the Business Case report that showed that a grade-separated Eglinton, connected to SRT, was the best. This report was finalized in June 2012 (likely existed well before this in draft form) and only released by FOI in November 2013. In that time, Council was blowing in the wind debating LRT or subway several times while the Liberals quietly deprived the City of the needed information in this report, just so they could win a by-election as the "subway champions". By the time this report was released, and Schabas released his report a month later (December 2013), the City had been so debated out that there was no motivation to revisit the subway plan - which is virtually the same plan we have today.

I actually don't think Eglington needs to be grad separated, have it as through line to Eglington East heading to UTSC, with grade separation at certain intersections. Eglington has the bones to be pedestrianised and I think Schabas plan can be faster regional option for most of Scarborough. Also the Eglington line running up to UTSC will also connect with subway and two go stations. It would be nice if Eglington was grade sperated but assuming your working off of $4billion dollar funding envelop I think modified Schabas + Eglington UTSC is definitely feasible. To be honest I don't care which party or politician gets this through, I'm just tired of half baked plans being pushed on Scarborough (Wynne, Ford, or Tory), when there are sensible options with existing infrastructure in place that can be utilised.

Also think it can be a political win for current players:

/ FORD gets grade separated transit to Scarborugh (Schabas plan)
/ Tory get to showcase that Smart track will better serve regional needs of city by better connecting with a broader network
/ Nobody will lose transit options by keeping existing SRT stations.
/Also the EA done for SRT LRT and perhaps some of the sheppard LRT can be utilised plus the potential zoning rights for development around sheppard and kennedy + sheppard and victoria park business area.
 
Last edited:
So what you're saying is that lrt and up are sufficient enough to help people of readable but Scarborough could only be helped with a subway.

Correct. Rexdale does not require a separate subway line, because TYSSE stations are located close enough to Rexdale. 8 km from Albion Mall to Finch / Keele, 6.5 km from Kipling & Steeles to Pioneer Village Stn. Riders can use local transit to cover that distance, and in case of Finch, the LRT will make the trip a bit faster.

You say you're not against local lrt like the eglinton east line. But if you use all your money on the subway extension that it means you can't build eglinton east you can't exactly say you're an advocate for it.

I am not an advocate for EE LRT. I think that line makes sense, but would not recommend scrapping the subway in order to build it.

scarboroigh is only going to get so much money and it seems all its eggs are being placed in one basket.

Transit funding does not come in baskets devoted to an area. It's not the like the provincial government or anyone is designating $3B or $4B for Scarborough, and telling the city to decide what to build within that envelope.

Scrapping the subway would not guarantee that the funds will be shifted to EE LRT. Conversely, building the subway does not preclude funding for EE LRT in the next round of transit expansion.
 
This was a bad plan

1. The Yonge subway is overcrowded and can’t handle that additional demand. That is a fatal flaw

2. The Yonge subway is really slow. Trip times from Scarborough would be very long. It’s a 30 min trip from Sheppard to King, assuming no crowded-induced delays. From STC, you’re looking at a 50+ min trip to King, which is indeed slower than the current network

The DRL North is a much better subway to facilitate this plan. It would be both faster, and have less crowding. I’d never support the Schabas plan, unless it was bundled with DRL North

Oh come off it, it's definitely not bad. Ignoring that Schabas was a bit of a shill who wasn't a supporter of an RL, if this were official and planned by the city the capacity crunches naturally would've been solved by phasing it to go along with some Don Mills-ish subway. It's one of the best plans for building a network we've seen in some time, for solving political issues, for bringing together pro-surface LFLRV and pro wide-body deep bore subway camps. A full subway, with 100m narrower trains, using existing infrastructure (Shep stub + Line 3) to our full advantage. Not big on Schillbas, but it's a pretty brilliant vision.
 
Schabas was the dude who told Tory that Eglinton West could have a heavy rail alignment connecting to the Kitchener line, right?
 
Oh come off it, it's definitely not bad. Ignoring that Schabas was a bit of a shill who wasn't a supporter of an RL, if this were official and planned by the city the capacity crunches naturally would've been solved by phasing it to go along with some Don Mills-ish subway. It's one of the best plans for building a network we've seen in some time, for solving political issues, for bringing together pro-surface LFLRV and pro wide-body deep bore subway camps. A full subway, with 100m narrower trains, using existing infrastructure (Shep stub + Line 3) to our full advantage. Not big on Schillbas, but it's a pretty brilliant vision.

It's a "brilliant vision" in the same sense that SmartTrack was a brilliant vision: if we lived in Fantasy Land, where all political, budgetary and engineering constraints could be ignored, I'm sure SmartTrack and this Schabas plan work be outright revolutionary.

Here in the real world, if this proposal ever gained political traction, the first roadblock would obviously be that his plan would literally break the Yonge Line. The fix for this, as you acknowledge, is the Relief Line North. Obviously this is not a small fix; suddenly his affordable, common sense plan is going to cost at least $15 Billion, making it the single largest public transit investment in the history of our region.

If by some miracle this $15 Billion+ plan got political approval, we'd then need to deal with the fact that this plan would take around 20 years to build, when our government has great difficulty even committing to a four-year plan. The chances that we'd actually see all phases of the plan completed are low.

And the biggest flaw is that once you introduce the Relief Line North, you've fundamentally changed the network to the point where the need for any rapid transit on Sheppard becomes questionable. Alternative proposals would come up, such as building BRT along Sheppard, and I'm not confident that the Schabas plan would compare favourable to the alternatives. Consider the BRT alternative:

1. A BRT would have stops every 500 metres or so, dramatically reducing station access time relative to the Schabas plan, which would have stops every 700 metres to 1 km

2. A BRT would actually run along Sheppard itself. The Schabas plan would run along the 401 for a large portion of its route, meaning that the time spent accessing those stations would be dismal compared the BRT's station access time. This is the exact same mistake we made when building the Spadina Subway along Allen Road, rather than under Dundas. The result was dismal ridership, even though Dufferin was a stone's throw away

3. Yes, the Schabas ICTS line would unquestionably have faster travel speeds, however passengers need to travel a significant distance along the Sheppard ICTS line to "make up" for the time lost due to the Schabas' increased station access time relative to the BRT. Given that the DRL North would chop 5 kms off the ICTS trip along Sheppard, there is a pretty good chance that the ICTS proposal will indeed be slower than the DRL North + Sheppard BRT alternative.

So. no, I do not consider this to be a good plan at all. The financial and political capital to get his plan and the DRL North built would be immense, and I just do not see it as realistic. Even if it were funded, the chances of us actually sticking to the plan long enough to see it built is basically zero. And as I mentioned previously, the addition of the Relief Line North into the plan puts into question the need for any rapid transit along Sheppard in the first place.
 
  • Like
Reactions: syn
Schabas was the dude who told Tory that Eglinton West could have a heavy rail alignment connecting to the Kitchener line, right?

Was that actually him lol? Am pretty sure he was on retainer at Metrolinx during the RER election promise, a goal of which seemed to be to prevent any spending on an RL. Which is partially evidentiary when reading Schab's other stuff. Always felt SmartTrack was concocted in those same backrooms, so wouldn't be surprised if he was behind that too.

It's a "brilliant vision" in the same sense that SmartTrack was a brilliant vision: if we lived in Fantasy Land, where all political, budgetary and engineering constraints could be ignored, I'm sure SmartTrack and this Schabas plan work be outright revolutionary.

Here in the real world, if this proposal ever gained political traction, the first roadblock would obviously be that his plan would literally break the Yonge Line. The fix for this, as you acknowledge, is the Relief Line North. Obviously this is not a small fix; suddenly his affordable, common sense plan is going to cost at least $15 Billion, making it the single largest public transit investment in the history of our region.

If by some miracle this $15 Billion+ plan got political approval, we'd then need to deal with the fact that this plan would take around 20 years to build, when our government has great difficulty even committing to a four-year plan. The chances that we'd actually see all phases of the plan completed are low.

And the biggest flaw is that once you introduce the Relief Line North, you've fundamentally changed the network to the point where the need for any rapid transit on Sheppard becomes questionable. Alternative proposals would come up, such as building BRT along Sheppard, and I'm not confident that the Schabas plan would compare favourable to the alternatives. Consider the BRT alternative:

1. A BRT would have stops every 500 metres or so, dramatically reducing station access time relative to the Schabas plan, which would have stops every 700 metres to 1 km

2. A BRT would actually run along Sheppard itself. The Schabas plan would run along the 401 for a large portion of its route, meaning that the time spent accessing those stations would be dismal compared the BRT's station access time. This is the exact same mistake we made when building the Spadina Subway along Allen Road, rather than under Dundas. The result was dismal ridership, even though Dufferin was a stone's throw away

3. Yes, the Schabas ICTS line would unquestionably have faster travel speeds, however passengers need to travel a significant distance along the Sheppard ICTS line to "make up" for the time lost due to the Schabas' increased station access time relative to the BRT. Given that the DRL North would chop 5 kms off the ICTS trip along Sheppard, there is a pretty good chance that the ICTS proposal will indeed be slower than the DRL North + Sheppard BRT alternative.

So. no, I do not consider this to be a good plan at all. The financial and political capital to get his plan and the DRL North built would be immense, and I just do not see it as realistic. Even if it were funded, the chances of us actually sticking to the plan long enough to see it built is basically zero. And as I mentioned previously, the addition of the Relief Line North into the plan puts into question the need for any rapid transit along Sheppard in the first place.

With the Wye plan though I try not to look at it as rapid transit "on Sheppard", more as filling in a blank. Is it truly needed? Not really. But it would be helpful, and solve a few issues with regards to politics, development, and connectivity. And yeah obviously a BRT could work too. But even an LRT was a bit of a hard sell, and am fairly keen on subway network expansion. Again, filling in a 6.5km gap. Using a 100m long train system not unlike SLRT was supposed to be. Existing we have 5.5km current Line 4, 6.5km current Line 3, 3km reserved Line 3 ROW extension up Progress...and this unfilled 6.5km T-junction. Is 6.5km of smaller scale subway expensive? Yes. But it wouldn't break the bank, and would likely come up less than SSE. In other words a large net positive for subway expansion per dollar spent vs the net zero we're planning now for abandoning Line 3.

With or without any plan Line 1 is filled, as is Line 2 (but few want to talk about it). No question we need a swooping Queen Subway/RL even if our system remained in stasis. So yeah I'd always picture a RL up Don Mills or Vic Pk regardless.
 
What a disappointment, UTSC centennial and malvern left off the map, while areas that already served by the stouville line gets an extra subway. The cherry on top is the reduced fares for GO within all of Toronto that was to happen this year never materialised.
 
Design still has to happen in the meantime. SSE design be close to what it is now even with the changes if 401 extension is staged.

What's your prediction for how long the design changes will take? I agreed the portion north of the 401 can be staged in terms of construction, by some design work I assume still needs to happen at the STC station. Would a northern extension change the orientation of the STC station?
 
At least with three stations on the Line 2 extension, the ridiculously huge bus terminal at Scarborough Town Centre can be reduced significantly in size, and bus traffic across the McCowan bridge over the 401 can be significantly reduced as well. Going north of the 401 is a huge win, relieving a major pinch point in the local transportation system.

42
 
What a disappointment, UTSC centennial and malvern left off the map, while areas that already served by the stouville line gets an extra subway. The cherry on top is the reduced fares for GO within all of Toronto that was to happen this year never materialised.

Extending from the Eglinton LRT would make a lot more sense than extending the Bloor/Danforth.
 

Back
Top