Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

Nothing to add that has already been said but as I Scarborough resident I am so disappointed.

Scarborough Town Centre will be getting $4 billion dollar in investment while the rest of Scarborough will be neglected.

I keep going back to this study done by a prof at UTSC:

https://uttri.utoronto.ca/files/2015/03/Choices-for-Scarborough.pdf

Again the best transit plan was Sheppard LRT, Eglington East LRT, Scarborough LRT all integrated with Rapid GO transit on the Markham stouville line. This would help residents get downtown faster and open up huge areas for redevelopment and revitalisation. To top it all off I'm pretty confident that at least two of these lines would have been completed or under construction right now and probably within the 4 billion dollar budget.

I'm honestly trying my best out here to create positive change, emailing both my councillor and MPP but I was wondering does anyone know of any other efforts from locals to rally around preventing this disaster? After speaking with friends and family in the area, most are misinformed but once we got talking they kinda of get it but they are so apathetic...they literally feel like oh were from Scarborough this what politicians do to us.

Please note that the document you are referring to, has one substantial omission. The authors did not show that their preferred option (Option 3) can actually meet the ridership demand. They didn't even ask that question.

My concern is that their preferred option removes the SRT link between Kennedy Stn and Scarborough Centre, and does not replace it with any other kind of direct link. They have a light rail line running through STC and terminating at a new Ellesmere SmartTrack station (blue line on Page 28), but it does not connect to BD subway. Presumably, riders arriving to Ellesmere station are expected to board RER / SmartTrack trains, and proceed either to Kennedy Stn or further south towards downtown.

The problem is, Stouffville line can not run at the required frequency, because of the constraints in the Union Rail Corridor.

You don't need to take my word for that; you can just open the document you referred to, and check whether the authors tried to estimate the capacity and demand for their proposed lines. They didn't.

 

[Rainforest]

I wish more Scarborough riders were as vocal for their support of lrt. Instead because they waver it becomes a political football.

I regret nobody ran in Scarborough in the recent Municipal or Provincial elections on the platform of replacing the subway extension with light rail lines. Whatever the outcome, it would clarify the claims of popular support currently made by either side of the debate.

If the no-SSE candidate ran and lost, that would confirm the support for the subway. If the said candidate won, or finished close second, perhaps that would give a reason to revisit the current plans.

When nobody ran .. opponents of SSE keep claiming that "politicians" deceive the public, but are in no rush to put their views to the scrutiny of public vote.

 

[BurlOak]

I regret nobody ran in Scarborough in the recent Municipal or Provincial elections on the platform of replacing the subway extension with light rail lines. Whatever the outcome, it would clarify the claims of popular support currently made by either side of the debate.

If the no-SSE candidate ran and lost, it would confirm the support for the subway. If the said candidate won, or finished close second, perhaps that would give a reason to revisit the current plans.

When nobody ran .. opponents of SSE keep claiming that "politicians" deceive the public, but are in no rush to put their views to the scrutiny of public vote.

Once John Tory ran on the SmartTrack - and it turned into a giant nothing - it prevented anyone from proposing anything but the subway solution.
That promise - which helped him win the election - prevented anything better from being looked at.

 

[Rainforest]

Once John Tory ran on the SmartTrack - and it turned into a giant nothing - it prevented anyone from proposing anything but the subway solution.
That promise - which helped him win the election - prevented anything better from being looked at.

I'm afraid that you are right. I always expected his SmartTrack promises to be scaled down, but hoped that something useful will come out of it.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Once John Tory ran on the SmartTrack - and it turned into a giant nothing - it prevented anyone from proposing anything but the subway solution.
That promise - which helped him win the election - prevented anything better from being looked at.

So true. At best 1/2 hour frequencies by 2040 on the Stouffville line.

Still long, but shorter than before ..

Not enough to say. "Here, ford should should be build these subways", or "we should spend 4 billion on this" That said let's build both both subways. It's time to move on. Gentrification is the key here. It's just that there's no way to justify the cost. These two subways should be it for the east. We need to get going on RER.

 

[BurlOak]

Please note that the document you are referring to, has one substantial omission. The authors did not show that their preferred option (Option 3) can actually meet the ridership demand. They didn't even ask that question.

My concern is that their preferred option removes the SRT link between Kennedy Stn and Scarborough Centre, and does not replace it with any other kind of direct link. They have a light rail line running through STC and terminating at a new Ellesmere SmartTrack station (blue line on Page 28), but it does not connect to BD subway. Presumably, riders arriving to Ellesmere station are expected to board RER / SmartTrack trains, and proceed either to Kennedy Stn or further south towards downtown.

The problem is, Stouffville line can not run at the required frequency, because of the constraints in the Union Rail Corridor.

You don't need to take my word for that; you can just open the document you referred to, and check whether the authors tried to estimate the capacity and demand for their proposed lines. They didn't.

The goal was to connect the major nodes of Scarborough (STC, Malvern, UTSC) to the Yonge core. The closest thing to accomplish this was the Michael Schabas plan. He did add elsewhere in the report that the SRT leg should be connected to a grade-separated ECLRT at Kennedy. The only thing missing was another branch from Centennial to UTSC.

 

[Rainforest]

Not enough to say. "Here, ford should should be build these subways, or "we should spend 4 billion on this" That said let's build both both subways. It's time to move on. Gentrification is the key here. It's just that there's no way to justify the cost. These two subways should be it for the east. We need to get going on RER.

RER is great, no doubt. I hope the Union Corridor can get the upgrades needed to support frequent RER branches.

 

[sixrings]

So what you're saying is that lrt and up are sufficient enough to help people of readable but Scarborough could only be helped with a subway. You say you're not against local lrt like the eglinton east line. But if you use all your money on the subway extension that it means you can't build eglinton east you can't exactly say you're an advocate for it.scarboroigh is only going to get so much money and it seems all its eggs are being placed in one basket.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The goal was to connect the major nodes of Scarborough (STC, Malvern, UTSC) to the Yonge core. The closest thing to accomplish this was the Michael Schabas plan. He did add elsewhere in the report that the SRT leg should be connected to a grade-separated ECLRT at Kennedy. The only thing missing was another branch from Centennial to UTSC.

This was a bad plan

1. The Yonge subway is overcrowded and can’t handle that additional demand. That is a fatal flaw

2. The Yonge subway is really slow. Trip times from Scarborough would be very long. It’s a 30 min trip from Sheppard to King, assuming no crowded-induced delays. From STC, you’re looking at a 50+ min trip to King, which is indeed slower than the current network

The DRL North is a much better subway to facilitate this plan. It would be both faster, and have less crowding. I’d never support the Schabas plan, unless it was bundled with DRL North

 

[BurlOak]

This was a bad plan

1. The Yonge subway is overcrowded and can’t handle that additional demand. That is a fatal flaw

2. The Yonge subway is really slow. Trip times from Scarborough would be very long. It’s a 30 min trip from Sheppard to King, assuming no crowded-induced delays. From STC, you’re looking at a 50+ min trip to King, which is indeed slower than the current network

The DRL North is a much better subway to facilitate this plan. It would be both faster, and have less crowding. I’d never support the Schabas plan, unless it was bundled with DRL North

This plan was as a means of connecting Scarborough to Yonge. It was instead of Sheppard and SRT and Eglinton. Or instead o f what we have now; Sheppard (subway or LRT), SSE, and Eglinton. If you add my branch to UTSC, it would also replace the Eglinton East LRT.

Under any of the above plans, including the Schabas plan, the Transit City plan, or what we are currently doing - A rider in Scarborough, will either go through Yonge and Sheppard or Yonge and Bloor.

The DRL is a separate project (although Transit City was to build the Don Mills part as an on-street LRT, and possibly some time in the future there would be a DRL short). The thing is - this plan would have led to the DRL North. With Eglinton (and Sheppard) as a full grade-separated transit line, there would have been much more motivation and reason to extend the DRL farther north.
It is likely the current on-street LRT on Eglinton that prevented a longer DRL from being pursued, since there are just not enough people transferring to justify the costly extension. Same thing goes for Sheppard. Those who pushed for the on-street Eglinton LRT also (maybe naively) helped torpedo the DRL north.

 

[Suburban_Toronto]

This was a bad plan

1. The Yonge subway is overcrowded and can’t handle that additional demand. That is a fatal flaw

2. The Yonge subway is really slow. Trip times from Scarborough would be very long. It’s a 30 min trip from Sheppard to King, assuming no crowded-induced delays. From STC, you’re looking at a 50+ min trip to King, which is indeed slower than the current network

The DRL North is a much better subway to facilitate this plan. It would be both faster, and have less crowding. I’d never support the Schabas plan, unless it was bundled with DRL North

I think there might actually be consensus around Schabas plan with some minor tweaks.

Primarily if the blue portion of the line stays on Sheppard (either on street lrt or elevated rail) until agingcourt go station and then dips down to realign with current SRT. This way riders can switch to RER to head downtown and also provide access to the growing population hub around kennedy and Sheppard. Thus making this a true scarborough rail option (agincourt, STC, centennial, malvern UTSC). Finally, I definitely agree DRL north will have to be built, with the added bonus that the transfer at donmills wont seem that bad, as it will represent a logical node for most riders.

Now if only anyone here is connected with Doug Ford.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Honestly this is just silly. No plan that doesn't include the DRL is going to work out well, but the Schabas "plan" is really the only version that doesn't have multiple huge issues involving terrible use of existing infrastructure. It baffles me that we never got this as a serious option given how politically advantageous it really is to all sides.

 

[innsertnamehere]

This was a bad plan

1. The Yonge subway is overcrowded and can’t handle that additional demand. That is a fatal flaw

2. The Yonge subway is really slow. Trip times from Scarborough would be very long. It’s a 30 min trip from Sheppard to King, assuming no crowded-induced delays. From STC, you’re looking at a 50+ min trip to King, which is indeed slower than the current network

The DRL North is a much better subway to facilitate this plan. It would be both faster, and have less crowding. I’d never support the Schabas plan, unless it was bundled with DRL North

It's not 30 mins, more like 25. Yonge subway is pretty quick actually, especially north of St. Clair.

 

[BurlOak]

I think there might actually be consensus around Schabas plan with some minor tweaks.

Primarily if the blue portion of the line stays on Sheppard (either on street lrt or elevated rail) until agingcourt go station and then dips down to realign with current SRT. This way riders can switch to RER to head downtown and also provide access to the growing population hub around kennedy and Sheppard. Thus making this a true scarborough rail option (agincourt, STC, centennial, malvern UTSC). Finally, I definitely agree DRL north will have to be built, with the added bonus that the transfer at donmills wont seem that bad, as it will represent a logical node for most riders.

Now if only anyone here is connected with Doug Ford.

So you want Ford to change the plan on Eglinton to grade-separated. Because that is requried to get this Schabas plan to work. (P.S. I agree with you that running along the 401 instead of elevated along Sheppard was a part of the plan that needed to change. Your Agincourt is a good suggestion).

Honestly this is just silly. No plan that doesn't include the DRL is going to work out well, but the Schabas "plan" is really the only version that doesn't have multiple huge issues involving terrible use of existing infrastructure. It baffles me that we never got this as a serious option given how politically advantageous it really is to all sides.

Remember the Liberals and Metrolinx hid the Business Case report that showed that a grade-separated Eglinton, connected to SRT, was the best. This report was finalized in June 2012 (likely existed well before this in draft form) and only released by FOI in November 2013. In that time, Council was blowing in the wind debating LRT or subway several times while the Liberals quietly deprived the City of the needed information in this report, just so they could win a by-election as the "subway champions". By the time this report was released, and Schabas released his report a month later (December 2013), the City had been so debated out that there was no motivation to revisit the subway plan - which is virtually the same plan we have today.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It's not 30 mins, more like 25. Yonge subway is pretty quick actually, especially north of St. Clair.

Yeah I just double checked and it’s actually 26 mins. It would still be a 52 min trip from STC to King, which isnt faster than the current network

Anyways I see the benefits of the plan, but it’s also a total non-starter without the DRL North