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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

CapitalSeven said:
Why are we saying "Ford's plans?" He doesn't know enough about transit to make a plan. These are plans someone at Metrolinx cooked up and sold him.
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No, nobody at Metrolinx cooked this up. Achieving that alignment to Lawrence & Kennedy would require demolishing the current Kennedy station, including the Eglinton LRT portion currently under construction. Metrolinx knows full well that moving the LRT station, which is part of a P3, would be very expensive.

If that is the intended location (and not a communication error on CBC's side), then this came entirely from the Premiers office without consulting Metrolinx or TTC or reading material produced on the SRT alignment while Ford was councillor (let alone more recent documents). Even Verster, Ford's guy at Metrolinx, is knowledgeable enough to have raised giant red flags on a Lawrence & Kennedy station.
 
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nfitz said:
CBC has published a map showing the 3 proposed Ford subway stations.

Normally I'd figure they've got this wrong - because no one would ever come up with something this stupid. But these days? ???
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JSF-1 said:
No way. At that point you might as well just run the extension through the RT corridor like the Feds proposed.
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Excuse me for the crudely drawn image, but pretty sure the alignment should be this.

I believe CBC just had the station locations and haphazardly connected the dots

179141
 
nfitz said:
CBC has published a map showing the 3 proposed Ford subway stations.

Normally I'd figure they've got this wrong - because no one would ever come up with something this stupid. But these days? ???

View attachment 179124
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If you read the text, it is nowhere as descriptive at the diagram.
The province, in contrast, wants a three-stop subway instead with stations at roughly Lawrence and Kennedy, Scarborough Town Centre, and McCowan and Sheppard.
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They provided no evidence on where this statement comes from.
I don't think we have heard anyone state (or even leak) that Kennedy/Lawrence is preferred over McCowan/Lawrence. Even if it is, I suspect that Lawrence/GO corridor is "roughly" at Kennedy/Lawrence. The problem is that if coming along the SRT corridor, it is much easier to continue to Centennial and Malvern, then curve north to Sheppard/McCowan.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Excuse me for the crudely drawn image, but pretty sure the alignment should be this.

I believe CBC just had the station locations and haphazardly connected the dots

View attachment 179141
Click to expand...

Assuming my crudely drawn alignment is correct, a few initial criticisms:

1. This plan is the longest of all the proposed subway alignments and will require additional vehicles. We know this because this was the case last time there was a proposal to run the subway to STC via SRT corridor. This is likely going to force the TTC to replace the T1 fleet earlier than planned

2. The Kennedy loop, when it was last proposed, was really expensive. So expensive in fact that, when factoring in the cost of additional vehicles, any savings relative to the one-stop plan were wiped out

3. The curve radii here are suspect, although I suspect achievable

4. This necessitates the shutdown of the SRT

5. The chance of this beginning construction in this political term is zero

6. Also, not sure if this comment from RBT applies to the alignment I drew. Can you comment @rbt

rbt said:
No, nobody at Metrolinx cooked this up. Achieving that alignment to Lawrence & Kennedy would require demolishing the current Kennedy station, including the Eglinton LRT portion currently under construction. Metrolinx knows full well that moving the LRT station, which is part of a P3, would be very expensive.
Click to expand...
 
rbt said:
No, nobody at Metrolinx cooked this up. Achieving that alignment to Lawrence & Kennedy would require demolishing the current Kennedy station, including the Eglinton LRT portion currently under construction. Metrolinx knows full well that moving the LRT station, which is part of a P3, would be very expensive.

If that is the intended location (and not a communication error on CBC's side), then this came entirely from the Premiers office without consulting Metrolinx or TTC or reading material produced on the SRT alignment while Ford was councillor (let alone more recent documents). Even Verster, Ford's guy at Metrolinx, is knowledgeable enough to have raised giant red flags on a Lawrence & Kennedy station.
Click to expand...

FYI, Metrolinx did propose a similar plan involving a loop at Kennedy station, and a surface alignment on the SRT corridor. Not sure if you were aware
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Assuming my crudely drawn alignment is correct, a few initial criticisms:

1. This plan is the longest of all the proposed subway alignments and will require additional vehicles. We know this because this was the case last time there was a proposal to run the subway to STC via SRT corridor. This is likely going to force the TTC to replace the T1 fleet earlier than planned

2. The Kennedy loop, when it was last proposed, was really expensive. So expensive in fact that, when factoring in the cost of additional vehicles, any savings relative to the one-stop plan were wiped out

3. The curve radii here are suspect, although I suspect achievable

4. This necessitates the shutdown of the SRT

5. The chance of this beginning construction in this political term is zero

6. Also, not sure if this comment from RBT applies to the alignment I drew. Can you comment @rbt
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Unless this completely avoids Kennedy station and Line 2 is split to go up Kennedy Ave. Could this be what's occurred and got lost in translation in the CBC-created map? There may be benefits in that it avoids altering current Kennedy station and Crosstown work, also avoiding Line 3 shutdown. In the end half the trains go to SC the other half Kennedy, leaving the door open to future Line 2 extensions along Eglinton.

179148
 
TheTigerMaster said:
FYI, Metrolinx did propose a similar plan involving a loop at Kennedy station, and a surface alignment on the SRT corridor. Not sure if you were aware
Click to expand...

Yes, but that was before Eglinton LRT was tendered and Kennedy station could be radically modified.

I don't understand Lawrence & Kennedy. Would CBC have taken "station at Lawrence" and filled in the Kennedy part themselves?
 
44 North said:
Unless this completely avoids Kennedy station and Line 2 is split to go up Kennedy Ave. Could this be what's occurred and got lost in translation in the CBC-created map? There may be benefits in that it avoids altering current Kennedy station and Crosstown work, also avoiding Line 3 shutdown. In the end half the trains go to SC the other half Kennedy, leaving the door open to future Line 2 extensions along Eglinton.

View attachment 179148
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Extremely unlikely

The big goal of the SSE was to eliminate the Kennedy transfer. What you suggest would effectively just move that transfer point to wherever passengers board the train. Assuming 50% of the trains to to each termini, passengers traveling to either Kennedy or STC would have a 50% chance of having to wait 2x as a long for a train (compared to today). So that’s a 1.5x increase in time waiting for trains on average

Beyond that, I don’t know how this would work with pedestrian flows at space constrained, high-utilization stations such as Bloor-Yonge. There’s just no way that huge crowds of passengers at B-Y Station can stand around waiting for trains going to their destination. Nevermind that crowding would only get worse in the future.
 
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TheTigerMaster said:
FYI, Metrolinx did propose a similar plan involving a loop at Kennedy station, and a surface alignment on the SRT corridor. Not sure if you were aware
Click to expand...
rbt said:
Yes, but that was before Eglinton LRT was tendered and Kennedy station could be radically modified.

I don't understand Lawrence & Kennedy. Would CBC have taken "station at Lawrence" and filled in the Kennedy part themselves?
Click to expand...

Side note: this alignment we’re talking about was proposed six years ago. Can’t believe it’s been that long already. And we seemingly don’t have an alignment picked still, FFS!
 
Internal cost estimates for Scarborough subway were far higher than city council was told

"Months before the debate, senior city staff had already calculated the final bill to be somewhere between $4.08 billion and $4.26 billion, which was well beyond the $3.56 billion available for the subway."

"Additional costs, such as debt servicing and some contingency funds, remain unknown. Staff have not provided a detailed breakdown, but are expected to report out on the updated cost this week."

More confirmation that city council was lied to in order to get it approved. Fiasco doesn't even begin to describe all of this.
 
syn said:
"Months before the debate, senior city staff had already calculated the final bill to be somewhere between $4.08 billion and $4.26 billion, which was well beyond the $3.56 billion available for the subway."

"Additional costs, such as debt servicing and some contingency funds, remain unknown. Staff have not provided a detailed breakdown, but are expected to report out on the updated cost this week."

More confirmation that city council was lied to in order to get it approved. Fiasco doesn't even begin to describe all of this.
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But you guys, cost doesn’t matter. Scarborough deserves Respect.
 
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