Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[crs1026]

I seem to recall the ‘bend’ being a GDB proposal that was not accepted by Council, will go looking for the details.

A non-looped configuration makes much more sense since it enables both eastwards extension on Sheppard if there is a Sheppard line and a northward extension towards Steeles on Line 2.

How one can argue for a configuration that prevents these lines from reaching all the way to the other end of Scarborough is beyond me.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

^ Thanks Paul.

The TTC has a decent map on their website with what I assume is the lastest? I guess they'll have to make a bend back onto McCowan if they want a Sheppard stop.

 

[steveintoronto]

Why are you such a sheep listening to this left wing media bias.

Those damn developers are obviously working in cohort with communists:

Experts call Scarborough subway funding proposal ‘far-fetched’
By JENNIFER PAGLIAROCity Hall Bureau
Sun., Jan. 20, 2019
[...]
The math suggests that in order for developers to cover the cost of building two additional stations for a three-stop subway rather than the planned one-stop extension, the province would need to allow those developers to build two of the largest private real-estate projects in Canada — eclipsing neighbourhoods largely made up of single-family homes.

Those experts say there is simply no way that enough demand for that real estate would materialize in time to make those projects financially viable, leaving the province’s proposal dead on arrival.
What’s at stake is that Scarborough residents may be soon left without any rapid transit. The subway is meant to replace the aging Scarborough RT, widely considered to be at the end of its run.
Assessing the government’s plan, James McKellar, director of the Brookfield Centre for Real Estate and Infrastructure at Schulich School of Business, said “Someone must have bought some of that new green stuff … That won’t work.”
He called the plan for development projects to pay for the stations “just crazy.”

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...97B721A&utm_campaign=tmh_8923&utm_content=a01

Why I remember when Entrerprise just built stuff and then rounded up the usual suspects to pay for it, or be shot. We're going soft I tell you, damn soft. I blame the Libs, liberation and feminism myself...oh yeah, and giving everyone the vote.

 

[BurlOak]

I rarely post, but I felt I have to as a individual who has spent the better part of his life living and commuting within Scarborough. The current plan will be the worst transit option in Scarborough's history, next to the present day SRT. There is a lot of travel within Scarborough and to be honest it sucks. We are crammed into bus routes that are primarily shared with traffic and only have two main transit hubs Kennedy station and STC. The current plan will perpetuate this unfortunate reality and will save 10 mins to many people but will be a great disservice to all Scarborough residents.

Scarborough is a actually a very spread out neighbourhood and if you don't have a car your pretty much a second class citizen. Although cars are fairly inexpensive and a a lot of residents have access to a car. It is not practical for the whole community...as it makes commuting to work and/or school a real pain when using public transit and we feel robbed of our time and put the blame on an ineffective transit system based from out of touch politicians. How can we create a better transit solution, when most of us don't even trust the decision makers?.. I honestly don't know what the right solution....but I do want to make an informed choice, this decision will alter my community, a place me and my children call home. I want a system that can connect our neighbourhoods, make commuting to work and school faster and more pleasant and most importantly positively impact one of the most forgotten parts of Toronto.

Note:
From the research I have done, I would like to further explore options that connects neighbourhoods through lrts and BRT lane, which canto Rapid Rail service (GO RER). I also like the concept of consolidating SRT and Sheppart east transit through Neptis. Maybe combining the two systems to connect Fairview mall, with Agincourt, STC, Centennial, Malvern, UTSC, Kingston Road and Kennedy Station.

Sheppard East + SRT (Malvern) + EELRT+ GO RER
View attachment 171615

Sheppard + SRT (Malvern) Hybrid
View attachment 171616



Souce:
http://www.neptis.org/publications/.../solution-scarborough-impasse-scarborough-wye
https://uttri.utoronto.ca/files/2015/03/Choices-for-Scarborough.pdf

The Neptis was discussed in this forum quiet a few years ago. I suggested 2 branches. Sheppard to STC to UTSC, and, Eglinton to STC to Malvern.
The problem was it relied on a continuous Eglinton-SRT, and that was a Ford plan.

• The other problem was that in June 2012, Metrolinx completed a Benefit-Cost analysis on the connected Eglinton-SRT and found that it was the best. Even though it was dated June 2012, drafts of this were likely available well before this - especially considering that the Ford-McGuinty MOU was signed March 2011 and the report was started then. Why was this a problem - because Metrolinx hid this report until November 2013. Schabas makes reference to this in the report.
• What happened between early 2012 and the end of 2013 is what got us the Scarborough Subway. Council killed the connected Eglinton-SRT line, without the proper info.
• Behind the scenes Liberals pushed the subway since they figured the transfer would lose them the election, and the connected Eglinton-SRT would admit that Ford was right. They bounced back and forth from Eg-SRT, to transfer LRT, to OneCity (B-D ext.) to transfer LRT to B-D subway to B-D subway on SRT corridor to B-D subway.

By the time the June 2012 report was released (due to an FOI), the debate had already passed it by. Neptis was the only one to actually put some analysis into it, as there was transit fatigue by then. At that time, the philosophy was that Rob Ford must be defeated at all costs. Transit was just a tool used to defeat Ford. We are now paying those "costs". We made the deal with the devil and are now living the consequences.

 

[nfitz]

We disagree. Lets see what moves forward after the budget

Are you expecting Ford to flip-flop on his "the developers will pay for it" so quickly that money for the Scarborough extension will appear in the budget?

I'm surprised you disagree about the obvious delays Ford's interference will bring. I guess we can revisit this in 2026 if the line isn't open (or at least approaching completion, as everything is always a bit late).

By that point, the original plan would have been so old, that they'd have been doing mid-life extensions on the Vancouver-like Mark III RT vehicles that being proposed for less than $200 million when we started this thread in 2005.

 

[tiffer24]

"Yet more stellar work from @jpags, who crunches the numbers on the province’s plan to have developers pick up the cost of adding stations to the Scarborough subway extension, and finds it might be a bit... optimistic. "

The amount of development required could be “equivalent to between eight and 13 Aura towers — the 78-storey condo at Yonge and Gerrard Sts., which is for now the tallest residential building in Canada.” Ben Spurr, January 21, 2019

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...ough-subway-funding-proposal-far-fetched.html

 

[innsertnamehere]

That's heavily dependent - $100 a square foot gives a bit more reasonable number.in terms of square footage - though still impressive. Land downtown is going for well over $200 a buildable foot today - so $100 may not be *too* impractical in scarborough.

It may be possible to get a "free" station out of Lawrence if they can properly identify a site for it, as most of that $1 billion is likely actually for the extension to McCowan. $200 million is the "per station" cost typically bandied about, which would require about 2,000,000sf of development, or about 2,200 units. That's high, but not that crazy. Phasing it over 10 years would be possible. There are developments downtown that have 5,000+ units.

For scale comparison - look at what Tridel has done at Kennedy and the 401. That site has probably 3-4,000 units in it. If the sheppard subway happened, Tridel could probably have financed the planned subway station there.

No way they are going to finance the extension to sheppard solely on development though - but they may get a bit of help from it.

 

[crs1026]

All the posts after mine earlier were interesting, but does anyone know the answer to the question I had? Does the currently available public plan show a bend for the STC station and tail track and would this need to change if the province wanted the line to continue to Sheppard (for the third stop)?

The "Big Bend" option, which was silent on Sheppard (It merely pointed the Line 2 terminus on an east-west axis in a place where an extension westwards was then feasible and pretty much inevitable) was assessed by City Staff and reported back to City Council on Feb 27 2017, the recommendation which was accepted was that the option not be pursued.

As far as I can find, the idea has never been inserted in any plan or approved motion of either TTC or Council since then.

However, it was raised by Doug Ford who was quoted as favouring it during the provincial election campaign.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

Since the "Hey, whatever happened to...." questions come up over and over, and there is collective memory fatigue on lots of this, I started a document that links to major City Council decisions on transit matters. So far I have researched 2016 forward. I will add to this eventually, but this is all the time I have right now. It probably doesn't belong buried in this one thread, but since there is lots of he said, she said on this file, I am putting it here and the Moderators can delete it if they feel it's inappropriate. Lots of good information in these minutes and the supporting reports. Also pins down some dates so one can then search for Executive Committee debates and/or look for press items in various media archives.

It's also interesting to see what reports were requested, and how many have and haven't come back since then, and exactly what funding commitments were and weren't approved. Did you know that Council agreed that the Line 2 extension would be DBF and conducted by Infrastructure Ontario? To some degree, that means it is already effectively uploaded.

- Paul

EDIT: Revised to add minute links from 2015

City Council Feb 11 2015

Sunk Costs Associated with Scarborough LRT - Administrative Inquiry from J Matlow
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2015.IA3.1

Operating and Capital Maintenance Costs for Scarborough Subway Extension - Administrative Inquiry from J Matlow
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2015.IA3.2

Scarborough Subway Extension Study Area - Administrative Inquiry from J Matlow
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2015.IA3.3

Scarborough Rapid Transit Options - Administrative Inquiry from J Matlow
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2015.IA3.4

Ridership projections for Bloor-Danforth Subway Extension - Administrative Inquiry from J Matlow
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2015.IA3.5

SmartTrack Work Plan 2015-2016
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2015.EX2.2
Request for Feasibility Study


City Council March 31 2015

Options to Improve TTC Project Delivery
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2015.EX4.17


City Council May 5 2015

Scarborough Subway Extension - Project Delivery Options
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2015.EX5.6


City Council November 3 2015

Waterfront Transit “Reset”
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2015.EX9.9
Directed a Phase 1 review of waterfront transit options and initiaitves


City Council Feb 3 2016

TYSSE Schedule and Budget Reset
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2016.CC12.2


City Council March 31 2016

Smarttrack
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2016.EX13.3
Remove Heavy Rail option for Eglinton West
Direction for cost sharing discussions re various transit projects

Scarborough Subway
Remove Bellamy corridor from consideration
remove Scarborough Express Rail from consideration
Expedite schedule for Eglinton East LRT
Expedite schedule for Crosstown West LRT

DRL
Approve Pape to Queen/Richomond for DRL
Report on Waterfront Reset June 2016
Many specific requests and go-do direction re various ST, RER, and GO Transit issues


City Council June 7 2016

Metrolinx proposed Gas Power Plant Mount Dennis
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2016.EX15.9


City Council July 12 2016

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2016.EX16.1

Smarttrack
Approved 6-stop Smarttrack
Approved Eglinton West LRT extension
Motion by J Campbell carried - study grade separations at Islington and Royal York
Approved study of Woodbine GO Station on Kitchener Corridor

Scarborough
Approved IBC for a single stop subway via McCowan
3-stop option removed from consideration
Approved design to 5% level for Eglinton East LRT
Requested Province to confirm timing for Sheppard East LRT
Rule out use of work site in Frank Faubert Woodlot
Motion by J Campbell carried - study routing on surface or above ground

Sheppard
Study extend Sheppard subway “to join the extension of the Bloor Danforth Line” - carried - motion by J Karygiannis
Study extend Sheppard subway to Downsview - carried - motion by J Pasternak

DRL
Approve Pape-Eastern-Queen Alignment
Approve Notice of Commencement

Other - report to EC Q2 2017 re
Study Line 2 extension to Sherway Gardens - carried - motion by J DiCiano
Study pedestrian connection to Lansdowne Subway - carried - motion by A Bailao
Study alternatives to use of train bells - carried - motion by A Bailao


City Council March 28 2017

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2017.EX23.1
Reject motion by J Colle to review SRT alignment
Approve IBC finding that McCowan superior to Brimley alignment
Approve procurement model as DBF vis IO
Eg East LRT plus Subway to be considered one project
Report by Q2 2018


City Council May 24 2017

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2017.EX25.1

DRL
Council approve the Carlaw alignment
Proceed with Class 3 cost estimate and schedule to be available Q4 2019

Yonge North
Advance planning and design to Class 3 Schedule and estimate Q4 2019
Council will not agree to extension until DRL South fully funded with a firm schedule for completion

Other
Report back early 2019 with project prioritization
Cost benefit analysis between DRL and the Sheppard Subway Extensions
Report on preferred alignment and station locations for RL Northby Q1 2018


City Council July 4 2017

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2017.EX26.1

King Stret Pilot


City Council November 7 2017

Park Lawn GO
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2017.MM34.3

Fare Integration
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2017.EX28.6


City Council Dec 5 2017

Smarttrack
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2017.EX29.1
Approve Station preliminaries
Support for GO RER
Report of funding and financing options by July 2018


Rail Deck Park
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2017.EX29.2


City Council April 24 2018

Scarborough Subway Extension
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2018.IA39.1
Response to Question from J Matlow re status of McCowan Bus Terminal

Smarttrack and RER and Union Station
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2018.EX33.1
Approve contriution of up to $1.195 Billion to Metrolinx for station infrastructure
Approve real estate and land disposal matters re ST and RER
City support for use of city owned lands for Union Station Enhancement Project
52 temporary positions for RER and ST
Funding measures for ST


City Council May 22 2018

Eglinton East LRT
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2018.EX34.1
Tunnelled alignment Kingston- Lawrence - Morningside
At-grade alignment through UTS
Extension to Malvern via Sheppard and Neilson


City Council July 23 2018

Union Station Enhancement
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2018.EX36.13

 

[innsertnamehere]

to give an example of a scale of development required to pay for the Lawrence station, look below. This is about 2,600 units - it includes a ton of community benefits as well. The province may be able to push the psf paid higher if they do stuff like reduce development fees and not require section 37 benefits as well.

http://urbantoronto.ca/database/projects/2280-dundas-west

Again though, this would likely only pay for an "infill" space on the line, not an actual extension. There are also tons of questions regarding the market feasibility of this scale development in the middle of Scarborough - it isn't exactly a high demand area with high PSF sale points.

 

[crs1026]

The province may be able to push the psf paid higher if they do stuff like reduce development fees and not require section 37 benefits as well.

My fear is - this is exactly what will be proposed. If the Province waives development charges and Section 37 benefits - which would be an override to municipal revenue, by the way - then they are only pretending that the private sector is supporting the cost of the stations. While in fact the taxpayer would be picking up the slack. Let's not do something this disingenuous, it would simply be a charade.

- Paul

 

[TheTigerMaster]

to give an example of a scale of development required to pay for the Lawrence station, look below. This is about 2,600 units - it includes a ton of community benefits as well. The province may be able to push the psf paid higher if they do stuff like reduce development fees and not require section 37 benefits as well.

http://urbantoronto.ca/database/projects/2280-dundas-west

Again though, this would likely only pay for an "infill" space on the line, not an actual extension. There are also tons of questions regarding the market feasibility of this scale development in the middle of Scarborough - it isn't exactly a high demand area with high PSF sale points.

Is there any precedent in Toronto for such a large development in such a low density area (Lawrence/McCowan) and away from any major commercial centres and thoroughfares?

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Is there any precedent in Toronto for such a large development in such a low density area (Lawrence/McCowan) and away from any major commercial centres and thoroughfares?

Arguably the Unilever site, but that's a lot closer to other major development and a long way from completion in it's own right. I don't think it's completely unimaginable, but it's definitely a long way from something I'd be expecting for Scarborough.

 

[Hopkins123]

Gawd, Torontonians are crazy. No where else in the country where they're building rapid transit seems to come with this prerequisite that a zillion skyscrapers have to be built surrounding the stations or else it is not worth the effort to build. Not Greater Vancouver, Montreal, Calgary or Ottawa. Why are we doing this to ourselves? It's madness!

 

[sixrings]

Gawd, Torontonians are crazy. No where else in the country where they're building rapid transit seems to come with this prerequisite that a zillion skyscrapers have to be built surrounding the stations or else it is not worth the effort to build. Not Greater Vancouver, Montreal, Calgary or Ottawa. Why are we doing this to ourselves? It's madness!

Were doing this because this is how this government plans to finance it. It's development or no station. But you already knew that.