Tuscani01
Senior Member
I completely agree. No loss here for me.
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Church-Wellesley Village
- Thread starter dt_toronto_geek
- Start date
I completely agree. No loss here for me.
dt_toronto_geek
Superstar
I haven't been to Fly in probably 10 years, but that's not my type of place anymore though I still think it's a shame that the last dance club is closing.
Also, for clubs (not all so much dancing) we still have Zipperz (for now), Woody's/Sailor, Statler's, Black Eagle, Church (for now), Flash (strippers & the odd drag show upstairs) & Pegasus. From what I read and hear gay districts are struggling in a lot of cities - NYC, Montreal, SanFran, Chicago etc.
Dandy Horse
Active Member
those are bars, a club is different. Personally Im over my Fly phase, but it was always fun to know that at 4:30am you could get in there for 20 bucks and have a riot. The village isn't really declining, as much as its excluding and alienating certain demographics. mainly young people and queers, curiously.
khris
Senior Member
Gross club? It was a real club space, that was modern and clean. Now we're left with dive bars like Crews Tangos. Yuck, now that is gross.
ttk77
Senior Member
The village may be in decline, but I think part of it is also due to a general decline in the popularity of clubbing in favour of smaller more intimate venues. Crews may be a dive, but it has a much more personal vibe going on.
devjohnson
Active Member
Nothing about Fly was modern and clean, I mean, have you ever been inside when the lights are on? It's scary. Toronto is supposed to be a "world class city". Compare Fly to a lot of the clubs in NYC for example, and our clubs are lacking.
Dan416
Senior Member
I think the loss of Fly is a shame. It's symptomatic of our arcane liquor laws in Ontario and the club laws in Toronto.
When Fly closes, the gays will no longer have a real club. I don't even like Fly, but I will mourn its passing for this reason. My favourite "club" is Buddies, and it's not really a club. The other places I'll go, Woody's, Crews, Zippers, are not clubs. Having a dancefloor doesn't make you a club. I just think it really sucks. Will have to go to Montreal or New York or San Francisco for clubs.
As for the people who say clubbing is dying, I think you forgot to tell all the kids who frequent Buddies on Saturday nights.
When Fly closes, the gays will no longer have a real club. I don't even like Fly, but I will mourn its passing for this reason. My favourite "club" is Buddies, and it's not really a club. The other places I'll go, Woody's, Crews, Zippers, are not clubs. Having a dancefloor doesn't make you a club. I just think it really sucks. Will have to go to Montreal or New York or San Francisco for clubs.
As for the people who say clubbing is dying, I think you forgot to tell all the kids who frequent Buddies on Saturday nights.
OttoSchloss
Active Member
New York and San Francisco? Most gay dance clubs have completely shut down in New York, they're having the same issues as Toronto as more an more bars either go out of business due to outrageous leases or just general heterosexual gentrification -save for the odd Latino venue. San Francisco was never a club town. Clubbing venues hang on in Montreal because that (going out) culture is stuck in the 70s, which isn't necessarily a bad thing...
The issue with Buddies is the music is just terrible.
Toronto is a bar / pub / venue town. Not a clubbing town.
The issue with Buddies is the music is just terrible.
Toronto is a bar / pub / venue town. Not a clubbing town.
Roy G Biv
Senior Member
Buddies can be fun, because you can dance to pop music, which doesn't require being under the influence of drugs... unlike house music.
Of course, the best music is played in the West End.
Bruno Republic
Active Member
My clubbing years are long past so this doesn't impact me. I don't think there's any one single cause: zoning restrictions, liquor licensing, high rents, gentrification, changes in club culture, etc., are all factors but none is key IMHO.
While in some ways it marks the end of an era, I don't think it's all that sad. It might seem that young queers don't have as many options for nightlife compared to many years ago but I think the opposite might be true, and that's part of the reason why there's no need for dance clubs in the village anymore. 25 years ago, clubs were one of the few spaces queers could openly socialize in. A fair number of the patrons were there not to dance to the latest tunes but simply because all their friends were there, or they wanted to meet new people or just hook up or whatever. I knew a few people back in the day who absolutely loathed dancing and club music, but they still went out to Boots/Chaps/Colby's/etc. with the goal of finding Mr. Right or Mr. Right Now. Today those people would have absolutely no need to be in a place they disliked just to find new faces.
Meanwhile, I enjoyed clubbing but I found the bland House and cheesy Eurodance played at gay clubs left much to be desired, and gave up in my early 20s because I just couldn't stand hearing the dance remix of Celine Dion's "Unison" for the six thousandth time. But back then, I just couldn't imagine going to a straight club which would've played music more to my liking. I wouldn't have felt safe at such a place, and certainly nobody I knew would've gone with me. I'm told a lot of that has changed now too; young queers who want to go clubbing just head with their friends for whatever place has the best DJ. They can be open and don't feel threatened, and they aren't going out to meet other gays at these places (that's what grindr is for), so there's no need to limit themselves to the village.
I don't know how true that is or if clubbing has simply gone out of style (seems unlikely to me, given that EDM is bigger than ever), but I'm glad that young homos have more options than I did. Back in my day, our social lives revolved around clubs, and the loss of one was usually a sad event. If the last club in the village shutting its doors is a total non-event for TO's queer youth, I can only think it's a sign of how things have changed for the better.
While in some ways it marks the end of an era, I don't think it's all that sad. It might seem that young queers don't have as many options for nightlife compared to many years ago but I think the opposite might be true, and that's part of the reason why there's no need for dance clubs in the village anymore. 25 years ago, clubs were one of the few spaces queers could openly socialize in. A fair number of the patrons were there not to dance to the latest tunes but simply because all their friends were there, or they wanted to meet new people or just hook up or whatever. I knew a few people back in the day who absolutely loathed dancing and club music, but they still went out to Boots/Chaps/Colby's/etc. with the goal of finding Mr. Right or Mr. Right Now. Today those people would have absolutely no need to be in a place they disliked just to find new faces.
Meanwhile, I enjoyed clubbing but I found the bland House and cheesy Eurodance played at gay clubs left much to be desired, and gave up in my early 20s because I just couldn't stand hearing the dance remix of Celine Dion's "Unison" for the six thousandth time. But back then, I just couldn't imagine going to a straight club which would've played music more to my liking. I wouldn't have felt safe at such a place, and certainly nobody I knew would've gone with me. I'm told a lot of that has changed now too; young queers who want to go clubbing just head with their friends for whatever place has the best DJ. They can be open and don't feel threatened, and they aren't going out to meet other gays at these places (that's what grindr is for), so there's no need to limit themselves to the village.
I don't know how true that is or if clubbing has simply gone out of style (seems unlikely to me, given that EDM is bigger than ever), but I'm glad that young homos have more options than I did. Back in my day, our social lives revolved around clubs, and the loss of one was usually a sad event. If the last club in the village shutting its doors is a total non-event for TO's queer youth, I can only think it's a sign of how things have changed for the better.
devjohnson
Active Member
^ You summed it up perfectly, especially about young gays not needing to hang in the village to feel protected.
There's a reason why the village itself lacks young gay people. We'll choose Distillery, Liberty Village, Leslieville, and Parkdale to hang out in because they're more exciting neighbourhoods with better bars, restaurants, etc. It doesn't matter if it's a gay oriented neighbourhood or not, it doesn't make a difference for our generation.
There's a reason why the village itself lacks young gay people. We'll choose Distillery, Liberty Village, Leslieville, and Parkdale to hang out in because they're more exciting neighbourhoods with better bars, restaurants, etc. It doesn't matter if it's a gay oriented neighbourhood or not, it doesn't make a difference for our generation.
Tewder
Senior Member
Well put Bruno!!
The village wasn't just protection, it was community and identity... but we're queer now, not gay. It's post gay, they say. Ok, live it up!
The village wasn't just protection, it was community and identity... but we're queer now, not gay. It's post gay, they say. Ok, live it up!
JasonParis
Moderator
Not so sure about that. NYC hasn't been much of a "clubbing" city since the 1990s. And while I didn't frequent Fly all that often, it's cleanliness was never an issue. There's far, far, FAR, dirtier clubs internationally (and that's both kinds of dirty).
Enjoying house requires the influence of drugs? Really? That's a pretty blatant blanket statement with very little truth to it.
Although I will agree with you that Toronto's gay west-end music is far more discerning than Church Street or the east-end (i.e., WAYLA, Old Nick). Although, the Black Eagle would be one surprising caveat. They play an incredibly good amount of indie, electro, etc. (even if their average punter isn't that interested in the music).
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DSC
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Yes, very well put - we are 'everywhere" now so maybe no longer really need a 'ghetto".
Dan416
Senior Member
First of all, I absolutely detest the use of the word "queer" as an alternative to "gay". My dad once used that word and it made me wince. The word makes me think of nutty left-wing activists. I am not queer, I'm gay thank you very much.
And again, there's absolutely no truth to the idea that there's no young gays in the village. There may be fewer than in the olden days. But there's still tons of them.
As for the music at Buddies, it's great! It's pop! Music with words! That's what *I* want to hear when I go to a club.
I'm from Mississauga, and I have never been to any of the gay type places in the "west" end. I keep hearing about them, but no one I know really goes there regularly.
Personally, getting downtown is easier than getting to the west end (GO bus is an option and so is the subway). I'm not sure where these west end venues are, but if they're no on the subway, then they're probably too much trouble to get to.
But then maybe I'm just old. I'm 32 now. And I've been going to the village since I was 16. Christ, that's half my life!
And again, there's absolutely no truth to the idea that there's no young gays in the village. There may be fewer than in the olden days. But there's still tons of them.
As for the music at Buddies, it's great! It's pop! Music with words! That's what *I* want to hear when I go to a club.
I'm from Mississauga, and I have never been to any of the gay type places in the "west" end. I keep hearing about them, but no one I know really goes there regularly.
Personally, getting downtown is easier than getting to the west end (GO bus is an option and so is the subway). I'm not sure where these west end venues are, but if they're no on the subway, then they're probably too much trouble to get to.
But then maybe I'm just old. I'm 32 now. And I've been going to the village since I was 16. Christ, that's half my life!